The Hawaii vacation rental market faces major transformation with this controversial plan. Set to help address housing shortages, it will without doubt stir significant debate among residents, Hawaii visitors, and industry stakeholders.
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This bill simply transfers the responsibility of regulating STRs from the state to individual counties. Folks need to dial the outrage back a notch or two.
Why are we in this situation? Because, like usual, past enforcement of zoning was either lax or non-existent. My residential neighborhood, nowhere near beaches has vacation rentals that are often a nuisance. The permits should never been approved, or theyʻre currently operating without STR permits. At least here on the Big Island, theyʻre only going after illegal STRs, dwellings that are not up to the basic minimum building codes, and primarily unhosted (VBRO) home rentals. Nobody is going after condos in designated vacation zones, or ohana units.
Thank you Drew- it is this kind of clarification I wish I saw more often in articles about this issue.
At least not yet….
2 of the above statements say it all…..”it lets legislators and the governor shift the blame for whatever might go wrong with this plan” …..and, “Alleged Hawaii Travel Industry Corruption Exposed By NYT.” This way, if nothing happens and the counties can’t find solutions to a decades old problem, then it isn’t his fault and no one will focus on the crooks in the Hawaii Travel Industry. What a stand up guy ya’ll voted for. I wonder how much money that could be going to build affordable housing will be spent on the inevitable legal battles?
There is plenty of available land in Lahaina, which seems to be the area of concern. Bring in Chinese company and they can have 500 units up in a week.
None of which will adhere to basic building codes, and will fall down within a couple of years.
Hawaiian lawmakers have too long enjoyed their position and incomes without doing the hard work. Unfortunately, there has been no foresight in addressing growth and other economic changes.
My heart goes out to those who lost their homes in the Maui fires. I also lost my home to fire 2 1/2 years ago. Since the state lawmakers have no real solution, due to their negligence, they pick an easy target to shift responsibility. Tourism is the lifeblood of Hawaii. It makes no sense to decrease short-term rentals, no matter who the owner might be.
Legislators: It’s time to put on the work clothes and get out your checkbooks to help those who trusted you with their vote.
I live out of state and have multiple STVR rentals in residential neighborhoods. I realize I’m speculating and taking big risk in the housing market, but if can’t pay my multiple mortgages is the State going to bail me out (taxpayers), or who is going to help me with my investments, because I really like the passive income and I also provide really good jobs for cleaners?
You are exactly why this law is coming about. You don’t live here, you own multiple house, you rent them out like hotels in residential areas, and all you care about is your passive income and getting bailed out.
that’s called Wealth Building…you should try it
Been coming to Maui for years. Still unclear just which units this will impact. We rent a condo in the hotel zone so we shall see. But agree with many on this site, this move would not magically fix the housing problem. Breaks my heart to say it, but if the situation gets really ugly we will go elsewhere.
I think that assuming a sate wide ban because of this bill is premature. All the bill does is move control for short term vacation rentals to the local counties who have a better idea of what their local needs are. You may find that some counties ban them outright in certain areas, etc. but I’d be surprised if any county actually banned them completely county wide. You may find them a little harder to get, and a bit more expensive, but gone entirely, I doubt it.
This bill is not about providing more housing opportunities, it is about preserving the exorbitant hotel prices that create huge profits for the mega-corporations.
Yup. And what will happen? The STR’s will all go underground. They will still exist. There will always be a loophole because the politicians here need them for their own STR’s
We have a condo on Maui & the taxes we pay are quite high which means that Maui gets quite a bit of tax revenue from condo’s, rented housing and such while hotels pay the least amount of tax compared to other choices. Governor Green should view the numbers prior to making a rash decision to sign any approved bill. We tried to help by offering up our condo after the fires but FEMA would only deal with property management companies that had 20 units or more. We can’t afford to hire a property manager as we manage it ourselves.
Bill
Although I understand what you are saying Santa Ana is in California and is not as reliant on tourists. If short term rentals go away it won’t necessarily have a negative impact on the economy. The people will still come to Disneyland for example and California has industry outside of tourism.
If short term rentals leave Hawaii it will have a major impact on the economy and I say this as a concerned business owner reliant on tourism not a property owner of such a rental.
So what about Palm Springs then? A major tourist destination.
Google the recent LA Times article: “Palm Springs capped short-term rentals. Now some home prices are in free-fall”
It is actually tourist areas that have had the most proliferation of people hoarding houses for profit, not the other way around.
Palm Springs is not a good example. They close down months each year. Retirees live there. There’s so many others choices to move to rather than a desert oasis that mostly attracts the nearby states. Palm Springs not a high demand destination. People will easily move to where there’s work. We can’t do that.
So you are saying areas relying on tourists aren’t a problem?
“The Italian city of Florence – by density, The Country’s Most Heavily Touristic City – has banned new short-term listings by property owners in its historic centre, and is offering three years of tax breaks to landlords of existing short lets if they switch to ordinary long-term letting. In Iceland you can let out your home, or part thereof, for no more than 90 nights per year and there is an annual income cap on how much a host can receive. In Tokyo – where the annual limit is 180 nights – hosts must either live and remain in the property that’s let, or have an administrator employed to do the same.”
Hmmmmm…
What could possibly go wrong?
I have said it before on BOH and I’ll say it again here. If I can’t get a short term vacation rental, I’ll have to stop going to Hawaii. The hotel prices are out of site and a hotel does not offer all the conveniences we prefer.
I agree this is passing the buck from the state to county/local governments though each island is distinct with its own challenges. As someone living in a very popular tourist area (Napa Valley), absentee ownership of residential property makes a difference in the community whether it’s a vacation rental or the flood of weekenders we have. St Helena is some 40 percent weekender owned now, I’m told. One thing is certain, everyone will pay, one way or another.
So many homeowner criers in the comments here. Most of them are likely out of state owners, speculating in the housing market just trying to make a profit.
All over the world jurisdictions are highly restricting or outright banning STVR’s entirely. Recently in CA:
KTLA in California. “The Santa Ana City Council has voted to ban short-term residential rentals within city limits. A recent spike in short-term rentals proliferated by sites like Airbnb and Vrbo has led to ‘a range of issues’ in Santa Ana, city officials said. ‘These rentals, typically lasting less than 30 days, have been linked to a range of issues including trash and litter, excessive noise, parking problems and neighborhood degradation.”
Bill,
We need more speculators and shopping hanging from lamposts.
Yours in the struggle,
Vlad
I hear you, Vlad.
A couple of beefs about this… First, the reporting on this issue continues to be vague. Are governments (state and/or local) looking to ban all STR’s or just those that are outside typical tourist areas? I am an off-island STR owner of a condo in a resort area. The unit would not be very suitable for a permanent domicile, at least not for more than one or two people. Second, beyond the vague reporting, the governor and his ilk seem to be forgetting that much of their tax revenue, and income for locals, comes from tourists who can only afford an STR. I can’t wait to see which officials vote for this thing and I hope that locals who depend on tourism will punish them at the ballot box.
Although I am highly opposed to STR’s in residential and ag zoning, I think STR’s in resort zoning is perfectly fine. That zoning has infrastructure established for……tourists, unlike residential and ag zoning.
The problem is that all you’re doing is jamming everybody into the resort zone. The big Island is so big, there needs to be accommodations around the island. A lot of people provide a great service and quite honestly their livelihood. Depends on it. Not everybody here owns multiple homes And lives off Island making tons of money
All the mini-hotels need to be removed from anywhere zoned Residential or AG. Dump them all.
I hear you and agree, but from my observation, many families (ohana) are used to living on top of each other, so that is a mute discussion.
Hawaii will see a drastic drop in tourist revenue if they go through with banning STR’s. They will feel it in which ever county bans them. I understand the concern for local housing, but the owners of STR’s shouldn’t be blamed for the poor or non-planning of unaffordable housing for locals. Most families can’t afford to get a few hotel rooms if vacationing in Hawaii. It’s just too expensive, so they normally rent an STR or go with another family or friends to lower the cost. I grew up in the summers on Maui as my grandparents lived in Wailuku and had a large family all over the island, so I love that island. Hawaii is starting to rule tyrannically using big government to not only push out owners but working locals as well.
The cost of housing in Hawaii has been outrageous for years so not agreeing that vacation rentals have much to do with that. If there are fewer rentals& the cost keeps escalating; tourists will find other places to go to. And many of the hotels are outdated so why pay top dollar when better accommodations can be found in other tropical locations. Furthermore Hawaii has lost much of its charm with the addition of high end stores found everywhere else &. The demise of interesting small locally run shops. I lived there for 5 years in the 1980’s & first visited in 1966 & IMHO Waikiki has been ruined.
Gay I agree. I lived on Maui in the 7o’s. I have seen the change and all this does not surprise me. My dream of the Hawaiian islands is diminishing. Its amazing, because I am older now, and worried that I could not always enjoy the islands. Now, the feeling is fading. I am actually thankful for that. Oahu is ruined for sure. Now Maui is not far from it. But, I will find a new paradise. Thinking of trying Tahiti next. I wont find someplace often as I visited Maui. But somewhere beautiful, serene, and with much more Aloha and appreciation.
Pt 2 Businesses that fail immediately will leave less jobs. Unemployment has not been extended. Do locals think they can live on welfare? This will devastate our entire state. Coming foreclosures. Condo market already crashed. Mortgages higher than what they can rent for. We won’t be able to afford the cost of living. Landlords aren’t allowed to evict on Maui right now. Supplies and food is shipped in, costs won’t go down. Please help us fight this insanity. It will affect all of us.
Kim, you are the first intelligent commonsensoical individual I have seen on these posts. I hope you own your own business, you have what it takes to succeed, …somewhere other than the islands, though~
Where are you seeing that the condo market has crashed? I don’t know where you’re at but condo sales are busier than ever. I’m on the Big Island and I’m a real estate agent. Market is hot even in the face of higher interest interest rates.
Oh, a real estate agent. Now that makes sense.
The housing market is dead, across the country. Lowest mortgage applications in over 30 years. Absurd prices and historically normal interest rates. I know several realtors who haven’t even had a listing in the past 2 years. Market is “hot”, that is funny.
I’m sure that there’s anecdotal evidence everywhere… Lol I have a ton of listings here on the island, I’m very busy. If an agent has an ad listing and more than two years, they have no business being a real estate agent.
Exactly! I would bet the majority of the price decreases in California homes is due to residents leaving California because of the high cost of living, State and local income taxes, crime and homelessness problems not being addressed effectively rather than a ban on STRs.
I live in a year-round vacation destination in Northern Michigan. Our real estate prices are not going down at all. My neighbors just sold their home for over 33% what they purchased it for 2-1/2 years ago and they didn’t invest a dime in updating the joint! We do have STRs, but our local governments have established limitations on the number of permits issued and (gasp!) actually enforce their regulations.
That’s not good. If you have tons of listings as you claim, it means you can’t sell them, a lot of them sitting there unsold, and also that a lot of people want to sell to get rid of them. Otherwise, you would have few listings.
The condo market has not crashed. Prices are actually up.
Really? I’m on 3 listing searches from 3 different agents, and one from Realtor.com, and daily I get price decreases, and not a single price increase. The same and new listings remaining unsold as prices are going down. I’m waiting to see how low it’s going to go.
Many vacation rentals are non owner-occupied but, owned by Hawaiians. That will limit Income for locals also. Locals depend on the rentals for income and have large mortgages on the properties that they cannot afford to pay without the tourism vacation rentals. Either way locals will be impacted!
If someone cannot afford the mortgage on a second property, then maybe the property should be sold, because they are just speculating in the housing market to make a profit.
That’s a pretty broad brush without understanding the circumstances. It’s not simply the fact that somebody bought a second home, there could be numerous reasons. The fact of the matter is that just because short term vacation rentals are targeted and possibly banned doesn’t mean that prices are just going to magically drop. The reality is that the properties that are licensed as short term. Vacation rentals are at a price point that generally speaking, mainlanders are the ones buying it. Locals don’t buy vacation rentals for the most part.
For this legislation to be effective, each County will either need to a) establish rent ceilings, so rent will be affordable for low-income families, or b) subsidize property owners for the revenue shortfall they would have earned if the home were used for short-term rentals . A mandated decline in revenue will force property owners to either take their home off the vacation rental market (if they can afford to do so) or put their homes up for sale, at prices higher than what low-income home buyers can afford. A mandated rent reduction will not solve the affordable housing problem and counties cannot afford to pay a subsidy.
Just another way for government to shirk their responsibilities and blame someone else.
Why are the low income family are our responsibility? I live in a very local neighborhood , . I have section eight, people on drugs being fed and getting land but trashing everything they get their hand on .my tax money goes to clean up after them , giving them food they do not eat due to their drug abuse..
I am Polynesian and i like to vomit when the governor tries to pass stupid laws
I’m in tears. I’ve tried educating people on how this will devastate our economy including those that want this horrific bill to pass. Ignorance is thick. Travelers commenting they won’t go were they aren’t welcome, feel threatened & are subject to high costs are a preview. Whatever stupid moves are made won’t last but how many of us can hang on until the damage is corrected. My heart breaks over what is about to happen. I pray that visitors will still come in spite of this. Many loyal visitors say they will still come but as friends & family staying at places that they have in the past. STRs in residential areas will be banned first. I am hoping those in hotel zones such as the condotels are safe. Part 2 to follow.
STVR’s need to be banned from all residential zoning across the entire State of Hawaii. Get the speculation out of Residential zoning, it is for…….residents, not for profit making. Residential zoning and infrastructure was never setup for tourism. The government should have never allowed it in the first place.
Areas zoned resort? Fine….
I agree to a certain extent. Many buy their retirement home and with the taxes, maintenance, occupancy etc there isn’t the profit you seem to think there is. It also is not speculation or unlike all the same considerations when buying a home. This is not gambling. It is the hotels that pay less taxes and truly make profits, enough to grease the palms of politicians. There are people that lived here, couldn’t afford to or needed to work off island. They rent their homes out until they can return so it helps with mortgages. It is our retired that can’t afford the cost of living or want to leave their home. Look at the amount of STRs vs hotel rooms. You’ll see the profit. Speculation. That’s insulting and untrue.
Do you work from home? According to your comment, it would follow that it is Illegal to work from home. I hope you do not allow friends or family to visit, only to move in and ‘reside’ with you.
Has anyone else thought of the fact many people can’t afford a $400+ Hotel Room? This would ruin tourism! I have a cleaning business and I mainly work cleaning vacation rentals on the Big Island in Volcano. Tourism is a big part of the Volcano Village area as well as Hawaii Volcanoes National Park! This (bill) if it passes will be detrimental in the lives of many people, businesses and people like myself who have been depending on the income from tourism! Please don’t pass this bill!! Mahalo’s 🤙Kathy U
Have you thought of the fact many people can’t afford a million dollar dumpy house that needs housing to work their local job? All sorts of people have left Hawaii and will continue to leave if housing prices and rents don’t drop dramatically. STVR’s are speculation in residential zoning, nothing less.
STVRs have more expenses and much higher maintenance fees. They are fed really smaller units and most aren’t in “resort areas”. Who do you know that can afford maintenance fees of $1500-$2500+ per month? For a 850 square foot condo. Our STVR pumps in over $13,000 in property taxes per year. If converted to a primary residence, you can cut that amount by 70%. How can counties deal with hundreds of units being converted to primary residences, and losing millions in property tax revenue?
I’ve seen comments addressing the limitations and impacts of affecting STR’s and the subsidizing those tax dollars do for local residents in the owner occupied property tax program. But, I’m mystified why BOH has not made on comment about this? Why not?
Also take a look at the tax revenue generated by the STRs. It far exceeds the hotels, timeshares etc. Maui County 2022 Property Tax alone 160m from STRs, 110m 2nd homes, 41m timeshares, 44m hotels. Source Maui County Property Tax. Hotels pay the least! Why!!! What about TAT and the other taxes collected by STRs. If all they care about is money why aren’t they looking at the facts? Without money no one can afford to pay rent. Costs will never go that low for low income residents. FEMA is already denying claims. Who is going to pay for the losses?
The lack of reality in these discussions regarding Maui is striking. We have visited yearly, often twice a year, for >20 years. In recent years I can’t recall seeing even run down looking homes on tiny lots listed for less than $1million. It’s likely that owners of vacation rentals paid that or more for their properties. Most owners likely can’t afford to rent to locals for anywhere near what Hawaii residents can pay without going in the red, and likewise few locals can likely afford the hefty down and monthly payments on properties in this price range, even if mortgages were back to 3%. This will likely take state subsidized new construction for locals to address (I read today 450 such units may be constructed).
As I’ve said in previous posts; “I’m done with Hawaii!” Eliminating short term rentals will do nothing to solve the housing problem. In California, rent is skyrocketing independent of vacation rentals. What will happen is repeat visitors like myself will find somewhere else to go. Our next trip is 24 days in Japan. My family went to Japan last year and we will only visit Hawaii for the 2 1/2 hour layover. Next trip, Tahiti. After that, the Cook Islands. All of which are cleaner, cheaper, and every bit as beautiful. Governor Green. I’m taking my money elsewhere. And I’m a Native Hawaiian.
I am also a traveler. Japan and Tahiti are still more expensive in every aspect. Not sure where you are staying. I’ve been to these places. The more I travel, the more I realize that there is no place like Hawaii. If you cant contribute to the solution, is throwing dirt in the fan necessary? We need help and support and we need the loyal visitors that share love and appreciation for our islands.
California? STVR’s are getting banned or highly restriced all over CA:
As I posted above, recently:
KTLA in California. “The Santa Ana City Council has voted to ban short-term residential rentals within city limits. A recent spike in short-term rentals proliferated by sites like Airbnb and Vrbo has led to ‘a range of issues’ in Santa Ana, city officials said. ‘These rentals, typically lasting less than 30 days, have been linked to a range of issues including trash and litter, excessive noise, parking problems and neighborhood degradation,’ the city’s release stated.”
This will have a long lasting impact on the state’s economy, and not for the better. These properties will be sold but not to locals. Hotel industry will find loopholes to scope them up.
How do you know they won’t be sold to locals when the prices tank. Look at Palm Springs, CA and other tourist destinations globally where local jurisdictions have banned or highly restricted STR’s…
LA Times: “Palm Springs capped short-term rentals. Now some home prices are in free-fall”
If the speculators can’t make a profit, who is going to buy these houses?
So banning rentals will automaticcaly throw those units onto the market? Well let’s just pretend it does… Who’s going to be able to afford to buy them. It’s not like they’d be “cheap”
According to who?
Google LA Times article: “Palm Springs capped short-term rentals. Now some home prices are in free-fall”
This is happening all across the globe where house hoarders speculated and are now losing money and trying to dump their mini-hotels.
If Gavin Newsom Jr. … err Josh Green, thinks affordable housing will magically appear over night by signing this bill, he’s smoking some serious Maui Waui weed. It’s not going to happen. People will sell, but at prices most people can’t afford. Or, they’ll occupy the property or leave it empty. In the end, I believe it will be a net loss for many and the state. people won’t come if they’re paying $600+ a night for a hotel room. My brother in law had a small reunion using a STR at the Mauna Kea resort. 8 people, $700/night. at the hotel, 3 rooms @$700=$2100 a night. the math speaks for itself.
Completely agree. We have been back about 5 times after the fires. It doesn’t appear to be any fast movement to build up additional housing that I can see except for on the Lahaina/Kaanapali border where you come down from the upper high way. That is the only actual building I see going on. Very little movement in Lahaina. Not sure the reasons, but you would think the governor or local Maui government would fast track any type of reasonable housing projects with regards to permits.
Hey Allan,
Looks like you aren’t aware what is happening around the globe. House prices won’t fall you say??
Google LA Times article: “Palm Springs capped short-term rentals. Now some home prices are in free-fall”
Palm Springs is not Hawaii. I have friends that live in Palm Springs and they see prices going up all over the place. And here in Hawaii, I’m a real estate agent, I am busier than ever and prices continue to climb.
“In March 2024, Palm Springs home prices were down 13.9% compared to last year, selling for a median price of $650K. ”
redfin.com/city/14315/CA/Palm-Springs/housing-market
You said you are a realtor, right? Should I hurry up and buy now, is now a good time to buy? Should I date the rate?
No, not yet. You quoted another house that was 1.4 million and went for 685K. I think you should wait for the thousands more like that, ready to hit the market in droves!
I’m excited for you, let us know how it goes.
If SB2929 is approved by legislators and signed by governor they are transferring the homelessness problem to the county.
As of now the short term rental units in Maui , offered to the fire victims have not been accepted by the fire survivors, proving that short term rental ban may not solve the problem of homelessness. These units are too small, no space for storage and not a home for any one.
In fact any regulation or bans will negatively impact the county by losing the transient accommodation tax as well as loss of employment for the residents who depend on tourism for work
This action will eventually, and probably sooner than expected, bite the supporters in the rear by causing the loss of thousands and thousands of tourists and untold millions and millions of dollars, but they Do Not care as long as they themselves are taken care of. The caring citizens who will suffer most be damned!
The 4th amendment to the US Constitution (the bill of rights) prohibits unreasonable seizure of privately owned assets, and the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides that the bill of rights applies also to the states and counties,
Which likely means Governor zGreen’s plan to seize or shut down Air B&Bs may face tough “sledding”!
Jim E
They aren’t seizing property though.
Maui is not the first State/City/County to ban STR’s. Many cities on the mainland have either severely restricted, required renewable registrations to operate, levied taxes or even banned STR’s for the same reasons that Maui is considering this same effort.
I can not think of another location, not even the other islands as dependent on tourism as Maui. The mainland has other commerce. If we could find other jobs here not tourist related we would not be bracing for devastation. Please look at the big picture. Oahu where the governor is will be fine. There is plenty of diversification in employment.
What are you thinking?
Large empty millionare homes, corporate owned hotels/resorts everywhere and you are targeting small individual owners who offer lower priced lodging to visitors who spend millions, create jobs and pay large taxes?
You, the government, have been kicking this can down the road for decades and now “the
chickens have come home to roost”.
Typical, not taking responsibility and blame
everyone else.
Grow up…
I can’t figure out how this law would change anything on Kauai. The county already can decline to renew permits or issue any new ones. The activist-driven convulsions in the 2000s resulted in limiting vacation rental permits to properties in visitor designated areas, which were defined by the county (not the state). The only exceptions were ones grandfathered in If they could prove they had been operating as one prior to 2008, and had paid taxes (show a tax return). Since that time, the county also boosted property taxes on vacation rentals by 40-50%. The county could always just make that 200% or whatever, until it’s not worth it.
I just wrote to Governor Green – maybe if everyone wrote and expressed their disapproval of SB2919, it would make a difference? You can do it online here: governor.hawaii.gov/contact-us/contact-the-governor/ Has any research or survey been done of STR owners to find out what they will do if this bill passes? Will most convert to long term rentals? Will the rents be affordable to locals? Does anyone know this information? Thanks BOH for keeping all of us up-to-date on this issue.
No, Glenna, the rent will not be affordable to low-income locals. Just to cover the the AOAO dues and assessments, upkeep and repairs, taxes (at the long-term rental rate) and insurance on our one-bedroom STR would come to over $1650 a month if it were a long-term rental – add the fee managers charge (10-12%, and $300 set up for new tenants) and the cost of utilities and you are over $2100. That’s if the owner has no mortgage.
This is sad for owners and a potential disaster for the state’s finances.
Corruption at its best in Hawaii
I see an increase in the homes for sale in the very near future!
Yep. And they will be unaffordable to the people that live there. So what changes? Banning vacation rentals won’t make a $3 million home $300,000.
If banned, exactly how are locals going to afford to buy a “vacation” condo or a house from the current owners? I would not sell for anything under fair market value.
They think that it will force current owners to long term rent their places instead, adding to the local rental supply. If enough owners aren’t willing to do that, who also can’t afford to let it sit empty, there could be rise in properties for sale that could lead to a drop in market value.
It might make a dip but it would be negligible at best.
If Senate Bill 2919 passes, only one this is certain: lawsuits and delays in affordable housing.
Does anyone in government actually believe the owners of these rental units will stand idly by while the state infringes on their property rights?
This is laughable and idiotic. I have heard the same argument in other communities: short term vacation rentals up the cost of housing and display locals. That is such garbage. Home prices are not magically going to fall because there’s a band on short term. Vacation rentals. Property owners don’t want to be landlords, they don’t want to be regulated under the landlord/tenant laws because many have already had experiences with terrible tenants. The lack of affordable housing is due to over regulation by the city and the county. Who’s going to make up the financial shortfall for property owners? the ban is a stupid idea
ktla.com/news/california/palm-springs-home-values-in-free-fall-after-city-cracks-down-on-airbnb/
And what they did in Palm Springs is not a total ban, it limits the number of short-term rentals in each neighborhood.
I read the STR rental ban is estimated to reduce the average cost of a home on Oahu from $860,000 to $810,000. Woo hoo! Might make housing more affordable for a few more people, but not the masses.