What’s ahead in aircraft flying to Hawaii may be truly disheartening for passengers. Here’s why.
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What’s ahead in aircraft flying to Hawaii may be truly disheartening for passengers. Here’s why.
Get Breaking Hawaii Travel News
Vacation destinations always get the crappiest planes because they’re not catering to the cherished business traveler.
Now I know why airline workers call the current plane load of people bus people, it’s like riding on a bus the why airlines cram people together. The days of flying comfortable is got. And the almighty $$$ wins again.
Cabin crew in a well known British airline call them “Scarebuses” and the term “minibus” is very common for the 319/320/321 series.
Got to disagree with you. All the buses I have been on are much more comfortable than 737s. 😉
Am I the only one looking forward to 2040 when we can fly on a 400 passenger 737?
I hope no one from Boeing reads that.
Don’t blame the plane for the lack of comfort. Blame the airlines. They’re the ones that specify how the interior is configured.
No, blame the customers. It’s simple economics: The airlines sell what customers will buy. If the airlines are buying more 737s, it’s because airline customers pay to fly similar distances on them now. 126.6 Million people flew Southwest 737s in 2022 – during COVID!
If enough people don’t fly the uncomfortable seats, the airlines will respond. But it is more likely that more want to go cheaply than comfortably, however they complain about their flights, and the airlines are already responding to that.
I totally agree. American had more room throughout Coach and dropped it because pax wanted cheapness more than value. How many of the posters would be happy to put their hand in the pocket to buy a more expensive ticket?
I got a kick out of your comment, It’s like don’t blame the chips, cause your have a heart condition!
TBF the 757 was pretty brutal on that route. I’ve flown United west coast to LIH several dozen times… nothing about the flight was comfortable.
Not that the airlines care, but, mooooo.
The best way to deal with questions like ADA and aircraft is to do a web search and find the actual law. I guess there are some people in the world who can’t actually parse law and policy when reading it, but it’s a lot easier than you might assume. A short web search led me to the Air Carrier Access Act. It’s at govinfo.gov/app/details/USCODE-2021-title49/USCODE-2021-title49-subtitleVII-partA-subpartii-chap417-subchapI-sec41705
A simpler explanation is at
Transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/seating-accommodations
Aircraft are designed to satisfy this and thousands of other requirements.
How is that possible? If people don’t like the narrow body coach seats, they won’t fly in them. Airlines will respond by offering different aircraft or seats.
It is more likely, though, that the airlines have already responded for a demand for cheaper seats to Hawaii by people who are willing to tolerate the discomfort. This means more people going to Hawaii.
There is also the issue that Hawaii already has too many tourists, causing ecological damage, traffic, and crowding, and there is a growing perception that it might not be ethical to vacation there. There are many places to go with sun, surf, and charming native culture.
Bruce P,
In some cases, there’s more to it. I live in the high desert and can fly comfortably from LAX. But the airport is terrible, so I fly from Ontario, where there is only one non-stop daily. That HA’s version of the flying coffin: the A320. It’s a terrible choice. Drive twice as far to LAX to be in traffic misery. Or, pay $400 more for a terrible 1st class seat that wouldn’t even be bus class internationally. I can tolerate, barely, LAX, but my wife says no. Happy wife, happy life.
I agree that if your only choice is a third-tier airport, and you’re a 4 hour drive to a better one, you’re out of luck.
This article doesn’t seem to point out that each 737 variant stretches the fuselage to accommodate additional passengers. It’s not like the MAX 10 is the same size as the earlier versions with just more passengers squeezed into it. While yes, it may be crowded in there, it’s still a considerably longer fuselage (around 50% longer than the original). Not saying it’s ideal, but should at least be mentioned.
Hi Doug.
Yes, it is longer, and the word “stretched” is used three times in the article to so describe it.
Aloha.
The 737 Max is a horrible, deadly, disaster. I refuse to fly on any 737 Max. Period. Life is too precious to take that risk, let alone the discomfort.
Ed: Given your expert opinion on aviation safety and how the MCAS design flaw was addressed, what specific issues remain that make the plane a “horrible, deadly, disaster”. And continuing to lean on your expertise, how would you address these remaining issues in the design context of new types such as MAX 10? Thanks in advance for sharing your unique insights.
It would help for the aircraft design to be inherently stable such that it did not require a software “correction” to pilot input, which is what MCAS does. This will, indeed, forever remain an issue with the 737 Max, and happened because they didn’t redesign the whole aircraft – they just stretched it – and the engines were too far forward on the new design for stability. Future aircraft should not be designed that way – if a stretch and other design changes make it unstable, do it some other way or redesign the aircraft entirely.
I absolutely would never fly on any 737 MAX aircraft. Boeing tried to hide the issues and people died. there have been multiple issues with the plane causing the fleet to be grounded multiple times. It doesn’t take an aircraft engineer to recognize the problem. I always ask what the aircraft type is before booking.
The cramped narrow body, single aisle airplane is just ridiculous. That coupled with too few lavs ( 20 people deep in a line to a too small toilet. Corporate greed alive and well…” you are why we fly” .
To clarify, Next Generation applies to the 600/700/800/900 versions of the 737. The 100/200/300/400/500 series are considered Classics.
Hawaiian tourism will continue to decline if the airlines continue to cram passengers into single row and narrow body airplanes.
I will miss visiting the beautiful Hawaiian Islands once Hawaiian does away with their two isle A330’s. Sad.
Kenn, I agree with your above statements, and as an elder, it is extremely sad that my loving trip to Maui, are becoming a pain in the A$$ and the wallet. The flight for me 6’2 female is so miserable anymore, that my love for these beautiful beautiful isles are diminishing.
There are nice cruises to Hawaii from San Franicsco.
Most uncomfortable airliner ever? Someone has never flown a CRJ-200.
The width of a 737 is the same as the width of a 757 (and it is the same as the width of the 707 before that largely launched the jet age). If you are OK with United 757s, you should be fine with a 737-10.
I normally fly Alaska Airlines on the mainland. They wonder why I never fly them to Hawaii. The 737 in general is the reason. I prefer to take Hawaiian and their A-330 planes. I will never fly to Hawaii or any long distance flight on any type of 737.
The 737 fuselage is the same width it’s always been. The A320 family may have a couple inches more, but they use the same 18″ wide seats. Both aircraft are six seats across in a 3-3 arrangement. Cramped, whether it’s 100 passengers or 230.
As far as type of seat, seat pitch, location and number of lavatories, etc. – that’s up to the airline. Boeing and Airbus only install what the airline orders. If you have a problem, complain to the airline.
As far as the aircraft type, again, blame the airline. It used to be that only 3- or 4-engine widebodies were used to Hawaii. These days, with rare exceptions, all U.S. airlines fly 2-engine narrowbodies to Hawaii.
Don’t blame the airline. It’s economics. The airlines provide what passengers will buy. More people are opting for cheaper flights and will complain about the discomfort, but not enough to stop buying cheaper flights.
I have a 13 hour flight to Beijing this month, with 4 hours to Sanya the next day. I only got paid to take Coach. I have an exit row, and will take a sleeping pill my doctor prescribed just for flights, and not experience the flight. Sure, I prefer being paid for a full-recline seat, but to better experience my destination, I’d sleep on the flight anyway and miss all of the cabin service. This applies just as well to my leisure travel, last was SFO to Europe.
The stretch 737 Max 10 and the Airbus 320 Neo not only present comfort issues but safety issues as well. The FARs requires that it should take no more than 90 seconds to evacuate. In a real-world scenario, an emergency egress would be much longer.
Where is the FAA? Their mandate to promote air travel is again in conflict with the mandate for safe operations.
The 90 second evacuation standard will of course be one of the things that is tested during the certification process.
The 737 Max 10 mid exit doors were made 4 inches wider to “improve exit rating”. This means they tested the exit time and changed the doors to improve it.
They would have mocked up the cabin to do this test before design of the aircraft was completed. There is also a software technique called discrete event simulation which can be applied to the flow of people through physical features.
What blather.
If you want comfort, buy a Gulfstream 750. Too much? Buy a seat in the Polaris cabin. I flew Polaris to Rome and it was the most comfy ride ever.
Most people shop for the cheapest ticket. They will jump ship rather than pay a $30 upgrade to Economy Plus.
I think you might want to Go Greyhound. The government no longer subsidizes airline travel, or did you notice?
Greyhound? Last i checked they don’t have roads to hawaii. Want a fun ride, sail there on a 50 footer. But need 3 extra weeks each way.
There’s no such thing as a Gulfstream 750 😉
???..this is so incorrect. Do some research before making statements.
If it was only $30 to upgrade to Economy Plus, I’d do it in a heartbeat. But it’s usually hundreds of dollars.
SFE,
$30 upgrade to Ecopn Plus – when, where???
Absolutely not interested in flying narrow bodies from my neck of the woods. 12-13 hours in the air is bad enough. My son and I flew on an A321 originating in Den to HNL years ago and that was enough for me – even in First. I usually try to get a nonstop from either ATL or DFW and that always (for now) means a wide body option. I really wish Hawaiian would consider a nonstop service from either airport with their new 787s.
Best Regards
I doubt you flew that A321 non-stop from DEN to HNL. It doesn’t have the range.
I didn’t state it was nonstop. Stopped at SFO (thank God for the break).
Best Regards
No Neo does not do non stops. DFW yes, they do non stop to but not sure DFW uses NEOs. I believe that PHX is the NEO non stop to HNL, etc.
Funny you say that United has taken delivery of the Max 10 when the aircraft hasn’t even been fully certified yet…
Hi John.
That is their plane that is shown in the photo. It is seen at Everett, WA.
Aloha.
Just because you see a picture of a plane painted in United’s colors doesn’t mean United has taken delivery of it. If you go to any airport that Boeing uses for pre-delivery storage (Boeing Field in Seattle, for example), you’ll see dozens of airplanes on the ramp all painted in various airlines’ colors. United has not taken delivery of any Max-10 (nor has any other airline, for that matter), and won’t until the airplane is certified by the FAA.
Hi Chris.
Thanks. That plane has been seen at Everett and it is definitely United’s. We’ll change the language to reflect they haven’t “taken delivery” but it is without doubt their MAX 10.
Aloha.
United is the “launch” (first) customer for the 737 MAX 10.
Follow the trail — it leads to the money. Airlines will save. And, if you want a better seat, prepare to pay what it will be worth. No regulation will stop it. If a regulation is out of compliance, it will be “updated”. I am very tall and we were loyal Hawaiian customers from mainland to Maui until they switched to A321Neo. Never again. As for SeatGuru, in my experience they have been accurate maybe 50-percent of the time. Not reliable.
Maleko, You are absolutely right on. I am 6’2 female and have a NEO to look forard to from PHX to OGG. Seat Guru accurately described the misery flight Iwill be looking forward to. Yes, the corporate world is about saving $$$$ now and forever. There will be no turning back and flights are to be miserable from now on. I will miss travelling as it is one of my favorites in the world.
At least you’re not priming the reader to hate this airplane in the title of the article without having set foot on a single example of this variant.
The 737 is the only aircraft that Southwest Airlines flies, and they have been extremely successful for a really long stint. The A320 is a mere 7 inches wider, distributed across 6 passengers and an aisle, so you get an extra inch width – big deal. It is similarly taller, so larger luggage bins, but the luggage you will be putting in them is the same, standardized, size.
Most passengers buy a flight to get there, and take whatever hardship there is rather than pay for business class or first class, which generally is an option.
I am fortunate to be able to fly First Class on Hawaii flights. I am 6’2″ 77 years old and need the room. The bathroom issue comes into play with my head banging on the ceiling on narrow body planes. The 787 Dreamliner flights to and from ORD to KOA were truly a dream while they lasted. Even American 777 KOA to DFW was great while it lasted. I do not fly 737 unless Alaska up front. The choices continue to diminish from KOA, so I will fly to HNL seeking wide bodies. Thanks so much for the B of H information you put forward.
Hi James.
Thanks. Happy travels!
Aloha.
Flew on early 737’s when seating was five across. Now it is six. Legroom was greater than it is today. I wasn’t most pleased then. I won’t fly on a 737 today.
The original made around 15,000
pounds of thrust.
Modern version, close to 60,000
How does this meet the ADA Disabilities Act? If you are disabled, you can’t fly??
I may be off, but based on balanced field calculations and the 737 Max 10 only having a two wheel truck compared to the 757’s 4-wheel truck, there may be weight limitations on smaller island runways, especially if the FAA ever updates their passenger weight calculations based on the most up to date CDC weight numbers. If pax weights are updated today for say the A321 does that impact current field length calculations on Maui if a wet runway?
Hi Mark.
That’s really interesting. If that were to impact Maui ops, then what about Kauai with almost 2k feet less runway?
Aloha.
Aloha.
737 great plane. Terrible passenger plane
The Boeing 737 and AirBus A321 family of short to medium range jet transport were never intended for trans Pac flights to Hawaii. Unlike the Boeing 707-320B and the Douglas DC8-61/62 jet aircraft which were designed for long rang flights like to Hawaii. Not only is the 737 and A321 very uncomfortable as stretched high capacity transports they are dramatically slower then what we could fly on back in the day. The Boeing 747 represented the revolution in jet transportation with tremendous passenger comfort and high speed flight. Both are lacking today. The Boeing 787 may be an exception to a sad business mined set that place small marginal cost of operation saving over comfort and service. The old way faster farther higher is long forgotten
I have to say that my last flight from LB airport to Hawaii was not satisfactory. The space was really cramped, and I’m a small to medium sized person. My other complaint was that the stewardess was very rude several times and had an attitude about her that was not pleasant. I was extremely disappointed ☹️
I must have been on the same flight…LB to Maui on Hawaiian…Completely full and Completely 100% uncomfortable and cramped !!! I swear each flight I take the seats are getting smaller and smaller and I am not a big person (5’7″, 130 lbs). Recently on one flight noise-cancelling headphone fell off & I had to empty 2 rows to look for it under my seat, as there was no way I could look under my seat as I sat there-ugh! I have only flown Hawaiian lately as I await Southwest coming back to LB-Maui route…off-hand I think Southwest is roomier overall and newer planes…Hawaiian Air are old, out-dated and literally falling apart (seats/mesh magazine holder/broken arm rests that don’t stay up…you get the picture)
I always fly Hawaiian Airlines Airbus A330
Wide body comfort
Art B
People want inexpensive. Even though they act like royalty once on an airplane.
Accept what you purchased. Or upgrade.
Russ is correct. Customers demand lower cost flights and eco noisemakers demand lower emissions. This means you must pack more people onto a more efficient airplane. Change the market demands — pay more for an upgrade or start your own airline and provide comfortable seats at 2x the price of the compeition.
I’m not happy with this comment, as it is the reason, prices remain so high. As long as the can-do attitude exists, us can’t do folks that save for 8 years to fly to Hawaii, additional seat preference is equalled to maybe a few more groceries, gas, or spending dollars for the locals while on the islands. If you can afford it, yes, go for it. But don’t bash us lower income for wanting to enjoy paradise with what we can afford.
Increasing seating capacity from 100 to 230 adds an additional 130 people. The “average” weight of an adult is 181 lbs., so that’s an additional 23,530 lbs = nearly 12 tons. Not sure how these jets can get airborne, If trying to fly with their original engines.
Question: when booking flights, how can I know if lying-flat seat arrangements are a possibility?
Hi John.
If you’re starting with Google Flights, which we’d suggest, it will list what business class amenities are included and will specify lie-flat when it is offered.
Aloha.
American and Delta show it on their app when you look at the flights. Seatguru give you a rough guess but it is not foolproof where an airline has many flavors. Also beware of last minute equipment swaps
Hi Rich.
Seatguru is highly inaccurate. Aerolopa is the go to now.
Aloha.
They aren’t flying with the original engines. The original turbojets were considered pretty anemic. The new turbofans in the – 300 series were a great improvement described as ideal for frustrated fighter pilots. The Max series have even more improved in power and economy engines.
I had a preview of the lavatory problem on a Hawaiian flight to Phoenix in January. Two lavatories on one side of the plane were non operational. That means that everyone on that side not in first class had to use one restroom. They made an anouncement that we could not cross the bulkhead to use the other side, nor could we use the bathroom in first class. We should have all urinated in our seats.
It’s the airline, not the manufacturer who picks the configuration, and the use of new “space saver” (contortionist) lavatories. If UA were smart, they’d configure the Max10 similar to the 757 with mid-cabin lavs to avoid galley congestion.
Hi Drew.
We expect to see a front of coach lav on that plane although with that many potential extra passengers, we can’t say how much it will help.
Aloha.
Time to re regulate the airlines, this is ridiculous.
What goes around comes around. The 737 was a short range jet using 707 sections. Now it is going to become a modern 707. Not been on a 737 max flight yet but the neo minibus did not impress me at all.
Basically All narrow body Boeing (737s) and Airbus (319s, 320s, 321s, etc.) have lousy uncomfortable seating for the passenger who is seated in the coach (Greyhound Bus) section. Even Extra Comfort, Main Cabin Extra, and Economy Plus seating doesn’t do much to improve the in-flight experience beyond a few inches of leg room.
Southwest is the worst.
Doesn’t Southwest offer more seat pitch/legroom than all the other carriers in economy? If that’s true than in what way are they worse?
One think I like about Southwest is as soon as you board, and all through boarding and de-boarding you can watch movies. Got stuck on the tarmac and helped kill the time. When I caught the return flight it picked up the movie right where I left off.
what did you expect from boeing?
Airbus is no better. Nada.
They really want tourists Not to travel to Hawaii.Keep making it more and more difficult and people find other places to go
While many are discouragine our travel especiialy to Maui, I travel world wide and this is a world wide issue, not just hawaiian islands!