Flight is reported to have been just 400′ from impacting Pacific. Southwest Flight has triggered an FAA investigation.
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Flight is reported to have been just 400′ from impacting Pacific. Southwest Flight has triggered an FAA investigation.
Get Breaking Hawaii Travel News
David: You don’t move the airplane from level flight to a fairly fast descent by just “pushing the control column down”. You have to either change the pitch trim and/or reduce power. Or if the autopilot and navigation system are flying the airplane, you have to make changes to their settings. If it was a microburst (most likely) and you’re manually flying, the aircraft drops quickly and you have to fly it using all the manual controls above. In most cases, there’s no warning of a microburst but the quicker you recognize it and start correcting for it, the less altitude you will loose.
Umm… not sure what you are talking about, the fastest way to initiate descent is to push forward on the yoke, you might exceed VNE if you don’t reduce power, is that what you are trying to say?
Also, you should review the news articles that are referencing the pilot report, that is exactly what was stated. “The F/O accidentally pushed forward on the control column”
If you are a 737 pilot, please educate me on this, if I am wrong.
David. First, I believe the Sr. Pilot over simplified his comment. Don’t know what he meant and would ignore it.
In a 737 and similar aircraft you initiate a decent as you described and probably reduce power to avoid MMO. But you have to also re-trim the horizontal stabilizer. Unlike single engine GenAv aircraft, It has many times the control of the aircraft compared to the elevator (control stick).
This was not a normal decent. It looks like both pilots got “behind” the aircraft after some sort of loss of lift (probably from a wind sheer). I’m guessing the NTSB will review the CVR/FDR data and we’ll find out.
When I first heard about this, my initial thought was that the pilots had encountered a microburst, then I read that the F/O “accidentally” pushed forward on the yoke.
This is just insane to me, I just don’t see how someone that is flying for an airline accidentally pushes forward on the yoke and descends at 4000’ per minutes from 18,000’, then recovers with seconds before impact at 409’ above the water. The only other thing even remotely makes sense is that the pilot was disoriented due to IFR conditions and the plane was being flown manually.
If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would think it was another issue with the Boeing Planes that someone was trying to hide.
How can you blame any pilot when you now have auto-pilot and the famous AI (Artificial Inteligence) to rely on. Sure it wasn’t a robot pilot flying the plane. Unmanned drone control thing? No pilot test project?
Anybody booking our next flight? Inter Island No Pilot Test Flight. (IINPTF)?
This guy 🫣 yikes
Gerry: I respectfully would point out that a full motion/full visual simulator is so realistic you’d be cr_p your pants.
John W: Al Haynes, Sioux City, IA, United DC-10. Al had just been to CRM (crew resource management) class. Proved exactly your point. Saved many many lives.
Thanks Rimo. Exactly. In this case, the Sr. Pilot probably just should have taken control sooner, knowing there would be some bad press. The pilot flying simply got little behind the aircraft. Upset recovery is trained and practiced. In this case, it sounds like it was accurately executed. The aircraft is designed for +2G loads and I’m guessing it might have hit 0.2G at the most.
I find it strange that the pilot seems to downplay this as nothing out or the usual!
Once again the media sensationalizes to create clicks and spread fear. Here are the facts concerning air travel safety:
Comparison:
Automobile Deaths: Approximately 42,795 in 2023.
Part 121 Commercial Flight Deaths: 0 in 2023.
The stark difference highlights the relative safety of commercial air travel compared to automobile travel.
Hmmm pretty good for a bunch of rookie pilots 😉
Well said Rimo!. I did a stint in the training department, there are absolutely outstanding new hire pilots and there are the same in the senior ranks, nothing indicates which demographic has the most, however pretty much every pilot who passes the training is well above the minimum level needed for the job. As you know, there has been no spike in pilot error accidents, the media does like to sensationalize incidents that have always happened though.
Aloha,
Nice try JohnW. Yes, the kids can fly the simulator like a champ; it’s just another video game, right? In all probability, after multiple days on the road, a few time zone changes, a few lousy sleeps in a noisy hotel, it sounds like junior was participating in an uncontrolled descent from 16,000 ft with the captain recovering seconds from impact at 400 ft, followed by a max power climb at 8500 fpm. Nice. Letting the junior pilot fly the leg in min weather, turbulence and at night was a near fatality.
Mahalo
Don’t disagree with you Gerry, clearly this particular flight appears to be a case of questionable judgement and for sure lack of experience with the inter island environment…..The point I was trying to make is that a blanket judgement of all new pilots, as it applies to any perceived issues with safety is unfair…..I’ve flown with some really sharp new hires over the course of my career.
Rimo
Good thought but look how many cars and crazy drivers are on the roads today. Put them all in airplanes and fill the sky and now see how many plane accidents there would be. I’d be scared to go outside in fear of a plane part hitting me in the head. Just think if there were the same amount of planes as cars. Instead of car lots
you saw plane lots etc. Most american’s don’t have the option to fly to work everyday. Runways next to a public road anyone? Does DMV ask everyone if they need to renew their pilot’s license? Not at all the same amount of planes as cars nationwide.
What I read on yahoo news was that a new, co-pilot was instructed to operate the flight by the senior pilot. After drastically dropping altitude the senior pilot demanded a pull up to the new first time flying co-pilot avoiding a disaster. This was the first time the co-pilot ever experienced flying between the islands. Sometimes I wonder if the articles on this website are really correct.
Fortunately in aviation there’s only one place online you can trust. It’s not the one you mentioned. It’s the NTSB. You can also trust the raw ADSB data that shows the profile. But who did what is anybody’s guess. All we know is that with two type-rated pilots in the cockpit, this shouldn’t have happened regardless of the location. They practice this in the simulator (which is extremely realistic). The NTSB may review it and file a public report. Both pilots are responsible in the end.
I’m not a fan of Southwest Airlines but I’ve had similar experiences flying between Honolulu/Lihue on Hawaiian airlines; mainly in the winter and spring months when the trade winds shift abruptly and there are unanticipated storm systems; particularly off Kauai
I think what this article has missed is the number of senior pilot “early retirements” over refusal of the Covid “vaccine” and other pilots who were injured leaving a shortage of qualified pilots, in addition to lowered standards for pilots by the Federal Aviation Admin. This exacerbates any in-flight difficulties.
There was a lot of pilots that took some very nice early retirement packages offered at the very beginning of the COVID shutdown…there where also a lot of pilots that hit retirement age. The post Covid travel boom followed and a lot of hiring resulted, which means a lot of new hires….Very few pilots refused the vaccination, I heard the numbers for UAL, I believe the number of pilots who refused the mandate was 4 or 5. ALPA has records of medical retirements and is apolitical in recording statistics, there is no unusual spike in medical retirements, there has always been medical retirements in the industry, no other profession is as strict about passing a physical.
All those experienced pilots that retired were hired when the minimum requirements where less than they are now, it used to be as low as a basic commercial license and instrument rating and that could be as little as 250 hrs total…..
Hello Guys,
I am impressed by BOH’s FlightAware and other monitoring systems. We mostly use them only when we have friends or family coming to, or going home, from a visit with us. Do you have a recording system or an account that lets you “look back” into flight history?
Thanks for your due diligence.
MJ
Hi MJ.
Thanks! Yes we do have a FA account.
Aloha.
I’m impressed by BoH writing talents, here. Whoever wrote this article did actual journalism and reported with context and without hyperbole. Kudos.
Hi Dave.
Thanks very much!
Aloha.
On 5/26/24, I was on Southwest 5089 from LIH to OGG. We were ready to land, then pilot gunned the engines and we headed back up again. After a few nerve-wracking minutes, pilot announced there was wind shear and traffic. We went around again and landed safely. As we were deplaning, I thanked the pilot for getting us home safely. I live on Maui and know that valley is like a wind tunnel, but after reading this article, I can’t help but wonder if pilot inexperience was partly to blame.
No. The inexperience would continue the approach and land after getting wind shear warning.
No doubt this incident was very serious, with Southwest acknowledging that their cockpit crew contributed to the mishap. It’s unfortunate however, that some of these posts suggest that Southwest pilots are somehow less capable of safely flying inter island routes, and that local Hawaiian pilots have the superior experience to fly in the Pacific. Hawaiian Air has less than 300 total flights per day systemwide, while Southwest flies over 4000 flights per day, many to demanding and challenging airports throughout the US, Mexico, and Caribbean. Southwest has an impeccable safety record, as does Hawaiian. I feel extremely safe flying Southwest anywhere in their network. Numbers don’t lie.
Thanks for bringing that up Bob….Believe it or not, I think SWA pilots are some of the best 737 pilots in the industry along with Alaska…but they are far less experienced with the intricacies of inter island flying than the Hawaiian inter island pilots…not even close. It’s a unique environment that someone coming over for a day to experience will be on learning curve that is far behind someone who does it full time.
Exactly. Island weather is nice much of the time, but – if not – it can be extremely capricious and unpredictable. But our Hawaii weather is capricious in in a very different way than, say, New Mexico with its desert thunderstorms. (Especially on the windward sides of our isles.) Both eco systems require completely different skillsets to deal with when things turn south once in a while.
Hawaiian pilots fly to the islands in the simulators as well, especially interisland pilots. I doubt Southwest, with their simulators in Dallas, spend as much time training to the specifics of flying to the islands and island weather. Windy islands, middle of the pacific, short runway on the edge of a cliff (Lihue) is not the same as most airports on the mainland. Many things on the mainland are challenging also, SW does go many many places. Hawaiian has less flights but also less pilots, pilots fly about the same amount of flights, however Hawaiian pilots fly to less locations and thus typically have more repetition with their specific airports, whereas SWA has less repetition per pilot per airport (except domicile), so broader experience. This SWA flight was landing south (either to Runway 21 or 17, not the normal direction, Kona winds, no ILS so a non-precision approach (prob RNAV) = more pilot workload for vertical descent profile.
Essentially what your saying Jay is right, something that a HA pilot has done numerous times might be brand new to a SWA pilot…it’s why it’s so important that Hawaii has a locally based airline and why it’s crucial that Alaska keeps to its word.
Truth to that, SW pilots on average are the same in terms of overall experience. HA on average does have more experience in the islands and the specifics of island flying and the airports and approaches involved, no sleight against SWA pilots, they have to deal with many more locations. I do hope Alaska keeps that specializtion alive.
Would this be apropos to Hawaiian? As Pan Am used to say “Fly with the people who know…” probably applies to Hawaiian.
Remove any reference to Pan Am and replace with Hawaiian:
youtube.com/watch?v=vyFvkHq03Lc
Anyone see the press release by Alaska today of the new route that they initiated service on from ANC-JFK? It purposely did not state the route was using a MAX aircraft – the press release only makes reference to the 737-8 aircraft. MAX is nowhere in sight…interesting.
It’s one thing to tell tourist’s that they are not welcome but this is rediculus!!!!!
We have been here 10 days and not one person said anything negative in fact only thank you for supporting Maui.
Where are all the negative people saying don’t come?
Flying into Maui last year, we touched down hard then abruptly took off again. Pilot came on and said. Some debris on the runway. No debris. As we were waiting for connecting flight, 3 other planes landed “hard”. I’m not sure if wind was a factor. But definitely lots of smoke from tires. It was unsettling.
OGG is located at the gateway to the windiest coast of the Hawaiian Islands. A wind-sports dream destination. Expect those landings.
DEI has nothing to do with this
A DEI (Didn’t Earn It) hire will be the cause of a future crash. Trust me, I see it building up. On a different note. I know for a fact that parts shipped from a major American based Boeing supplier (that will remain unnamed) broke Boeing’s test stands because Boeing was incorrectly testing parts delivered to them.
As will a non DEI pilot be the cause of future crash…pilots have always been hired from a wide variety of backgrounds and experience. They all get the same intensive training and are well qualified for what they do if they pass. The fact that pilots are being hired from non traditional backgrounds but have managed to get hired and passed the training speaks volumes of their capabilities……great candidates for being excellent airman.
Years ago LA county wanted more female fireman. They lowered the physical requirements to accomplish this. For me, I want someone who can carry my injured butt out of a burning building, not someone who can pass a lessor test.
Why don’t you go tell Rhonda Rousey she’s a weakling!…. I do know that diverse perspectives in the cockpit increases the safety margin when properly utilized. A lack of diversity contributed to the worst commercial accidents in history. Tenerife. Two 747’s collided because a very experienced senior white guy focused only on his perspective of the situation and was not open to other perspectives. Flying an airliner is a team operation, a flight crew is stronger when they exam all the possible perspectives and options available to them. Creating a diverse pilot population creates new perspectives and opportunities to enhance the profession.
Using “trust me” in an anonymous forum comment: 🙄
@Jonny…
Sure… I trust you. You really sound like you know what you are talking about. 😉
Is it possible that this aircraft has problems with trim controls on power due to the engine position? If so, this may just be an aircraft not safe by design.
We just watched Boeing and FAA go through five years of an extremely prolonged correction and evaluation process for the handling problems of the MAX series caused (at root) by the new engines. If there are still problems with aircraft handling of the MAX at this point, we may as well give up on attempts ar bureacratic oversight and even basic engineering at this point.
Great points. As far as I can discern, the only corrections that were actually implemented by Boeing were to the trim control software. While the physical limitations introduced by the of bigger MAX engines and their positions still persist.
Have to say, as I read more about this……seems to be yet again a clear cut example of SWA’s lack of experience flying inter island in play here. Things happen quickly in a jet on a 20 min flight. Throw in bad weather and unfamiliarity issues and problems are more likely to arise. It’s as simple as that. It’s one more reason why the Alaska/ Hawaiian merger as structured is so brilliant…..it will assure an experienced local airline presence.
@Rob T…
Really? Really? What would make you think it has Anything to do with DEI? Can’t you leave that kind of stuff at home?
Also just breaking news wise, fake titanium was used in the construction of some 787’s and 737’s by Spirit Aerospace bought from a Turkish supplier which had sourced it from a fraudulent Chinese operation with fake certs of origin and questionable metal that showed corrosion holes (It’s Not titanium if it did). News just keeps getting better and better Jah?
Best Regards
Sounds like operator error to me.
Another reason to never fly Southwest
What is it that you mean by this?
I am wondering if SWA’s competitive “win at all costs….us against them attitude” could be a factor in these incidents. They have a tendency to fly fast and cut other carriers off when they can and it’s not the best way to operate. My first thought when I heard about the Dutch Roll incident was perhaps they were flying too fast?
Dear JohnW….Airlines fly as fast as the air traffic controllers tell them ! And airlines don’t “cut off” other airlines ! Movement on the ground is also controlled by ground controllers !
Pablo, twice in my career I’ve had an airplane that was told to hold short of a taxiway, than ignore it, pull ahead of me and than say they didn’t hear the controller. It was with enough spacing that it wasn’t unsafe, it just allowed their plane to get ahead in the take off sequence. Both times, you guessed it, SWA, I’m not alone with that experience…..also you are in fact assigned a cruise speed but you can request clearance to increase your speed if traffic permits.
SWA does in fact have a reputation for “aggressive self interest” throughout the industry. I recall their pilot union chief proudly stating they are “aggressively predatory”……..
No Pablo. Southwest regularly cuts, and hurries on the ramp. They are notorious for taxiing fast and trying to jump the line interisland.
Great Job BOH on this report.
In reference to DEI industry wide, remember that nepotism was rampant in the pilot world and they were young Caucasian. The original DEI and that has led to the current DEI to make a change in the demographic. Only qualified pilots are being hired and there is no proof otherwise.
As you noted, Hawaiian’s experience in Hawaii does mean a lot. Let’s be honest, incidents can happen on any carrier. At their core all US airlines are safe. Inter Island flying is usually a fair weather pleasant experience, however when the rare bad weather days arise or a volcano erupts etc, Hawaiians experience does make a substantial difference. It’s not uncommon for a SWA inter island pilot having never flown in Kona winds or even done more than a few flights in Hawaii. Experience is good.
Respectfully, “the islands” do Not come even close as a contender to hold a monopoly on challenging weather or terrain.
As someone who has years of Part 121 eastern pacific flying, I would offer the most challenging aspect of Hawaii flying is evaluating your conditions/options to continue the flight over the halfway point.
OGG, HNL, KOA take a back seat to Orange County, Burbank, DCA, LGA, and others. I would invite anyone to examine the 365 days of Denver, CO flying–or the entirety of the US Gulf Coast–winter operations in the Canda or the Northeastern United States–any number of Mexican destinations which U.S. carriers frequent daily.
There is a much larger problem within the industry–not suitable to an article’s comment section.
JF…you are correct that Inter Island flying is quite benevolent most of the time. However it’s the rarity of extreme weather that makes it tricky. You can go from beautiful clear skies for months, to facing a landing in a half mile visibility in driving rain, moderate turbulence and 30 knot crosswind. If you aren’t prepared or behind the airplane due to being unfamiliar with the islands it can be a bit of a challenge. Inter island has its own set of challenges and experience is very beneficial when conditions like this flight had arises.
The problem rest solely with that horrible airline
If this is the incident I heard of elsewhere, the gyrations were described as a “dutch roll” where the aircraft simultaneously yaws back and forth horizontally while also twisting in a partial roll side to side. Stuff on the aircraft itself ended up damaged from the violence of the maneuver.
Surprising that we’re only hearing of this now.
Hi Jeff.
This is *absolutely not* the Dutch Roll incident previously reported. That took place on a flight from Phoenix to Oakland.
Aloha.
This sounds more like the lion air incident!
“Reminiscent of the United Airlines Boeing 787 Dreamliner plunge incident which occurred off Maui.” – Need to correct this paragraph heading. As you note in the following language, it was a United 777, not a 787, in that situation.
Hi JJ.
Thanks, we caught and corrected that plane type. It was a Dreamliner.
Aloha.
I was flying from Honolulu to San Diego June 5th on Hawaiian flight 16. Airbus 330. As we approached Lindburg at 800 ft wheels down the thrusters came on full. Back up we went. The captain said they lost visibility. We circled around for 15 min or so and landed. Don’t know how common that is. I’ve flown a lot and never experienced that. I hope never again. 😬
Hi Larry.
We have experienced that previously at San Diego. Others may comment, but it appears to be something that happens there. At Lindbergh Field we at least can’t help but be reminded of that PSA incident from 1978.
Aloha.
Larry, SAN has higher landing minimums due to the surrounding terrain and a shorter runway that doesn’t allow for an auto land in low visibility situations. They get the same coastal fog or marine layer as LAX or SFO but SAN requires better visibility to land. So a go around is more likely. Go around’s are not unsafe, trying to land when you shouldn’t is. Again, it’s experience that counts in situations like this. Your pilot did what he did to keep you safe.
Thankfully due to the implementation of the TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system)after that PSA crash and the mid air one over Cerritos makes the likelihood of a collision like that very slim
In May I was on a Hawiian flight from LIH to HNL. The flight departed to the south and because of severe weather over the chanel we flew a very long circular route to the south before arriving for a somewhat normal approach to HNL.
San Diego had a very thick marine layer this year which lasted almost 2 weeks with little to no sun at the coast.
Even though most approaches to San Diego are east to west the standard ILS approach is west to east. GPS has helped a lot with this but terrain is still an issue.
The 1978 PSA crash happened on a crystal clear, cloudless morning. It happened when a student pilot and instructor were practicing the ILS approach and departure, west to east, and collided with an incoming, east to west, 727 that was on final approach. Students are no longer allowed to practice this approach.
Finally, Lindbergh Field is no longer officially Lindbergh Field. It is San Diego International Airport.
Johannes L: Sooooo??
Experienced (US) flight crews know how to safely and efficiently do their job. Day in and day out. They deal with WX, mechanicals and all other challenges the same way. Safety first. They have incredible in-flight hardware and ground-based experts and know how to use them.
‘Nuf said.
So you are responding to?
A concuring observation to JohnW’s post? A lived experience on a recent flight? A tragic historical event that happened a few miles from my home, and in my living memory?
P.S.
The PSA accident was a major driver of the current airspace designation system of Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, and Golf and their requirements and limitations.
Perhaps governments and airlines should not mass require injections operating under an emergency use authorization. That would have helped the pilot shortage. 🙏🏼
Tell us you know nothing without telling us you know nothing
Sorry Cathy you’ve been duped by the anti vax internet folks. The pilot shortage is at the regional/express carriers level, the fallout from their years of terribly low pay scales. The carriers like SWA HA DAL UAL etc have plenty of applicants .Hiring is totally unaffected by the vaccine mandate of a couple years ago. Just like the anti DEI myths circulating on the Internet…a lot of lies are being circulated.
Cathy is correct. No duping. Real facts. The blinders must be removed, if it isn’t too late already.
Anyone that’s flown a lot around the islands and especially in the northern pacific knows how the weather can toss you around once in a while. None the climb or decent rates mentioned are unusual and the SW pilot appropriately took control. So in the future why don’t you write something useful like encouraging passengers to always buckle in -period. In the northern Pacific it can happen at 35,000 feet.
Once again, why anyone would fly both southworst and on any 737 MAX knowing the issues they both have is mind boggling. This could have ended very badly.
This shows what exactly happed. Poor training and a lot of errors
gulfnews.com/business/aviation/southwest-airlines-boeing-flight-experiences-terrifying-dutch-roll-with-175-passengers-onboard-1.1718389499667
Hi Walter.
That is not the same incident at all.
Aloha.
Why is this link here? This has Nothing to do with the article. Readers may very well confuse the 2 incidents ! Moderators?
Dare I say that the most experienced pilots do the interisland flying since the challenges of such flying are already well known?
Aloha,
“The flight’s captain had assigned the less experienced first officer to pilot the short journey, despite dealing with the extremely challenging weather.”
This was a major lapse in judgement by the captain.
Mahalo
The fact that they managed to regain control suggests that it could have been a temporary loss of lift due to a microburst during the described “treacherous weather.” A microburst occurring directly behind the aircraft’s flight path can result in a sudden loss of lift. It might not have had anything to do with the aircraft or the pilots’ relative experience.
or the lovely software that unsafe aircraft has on it could have possibly been the culprit once again.
But any layperson gets a little nervous when they see “Boeing” in that sentence.
Sounds like it was, in point of fact, the Captain who was able to regain control, regardless of the microburst theory. An argument favoring having most experienced pilots on any flights when weather may be a factor. That day was one, as “obscured visibility” was right there in the description of the event.
So many variables to consider when flying in and out of the islands. It’s no easy feat, and I commend the pilots.
I always thank the staff them when I board and deboard.
Newer pilots are a bit ‘wet behind the ears’ and this can lead to errors, maybe there needs to be more lengthy training and flying before tackling the challenging weather trips.
Mahalo
I fly to Kauai for my 1st time Wed on Southwest. Now I’m wishing I’d gone with Hawaiian for the island specific experience level. I hadn’t really thought of that. I do worry about safety as a former flight attendant, and anyone whose paying attention, I have some trust issues regarding safety and experience in general. I’m grateful the Cpt was able to save the flight from disaster. Amazing how no one said anything on social media about this scary situation. Hope this close call can help safety and training focus need areas for us all.
Thanks for your reporting 👍🏽