Have to say, as I read more about this……seems to be yet again a clear cut example of SWA’s lack of experience flying inter island in play here. Things happen quickly in a jet on a 20 min flight. Throw in bad weather and unfamiliarity issues and problems are more likely to arise. It’s as simple as that. It’s one more reason why the Alaska/ Hawaiian merger as structured is so brilliant…..it will assure an experienced local airline presence.
Also just breaking news wise, fake titanium was used in the construction of some 787’s and 737’s by Spirit Aerospace bought from a Turkish supplier which had sourced it from a fraudulent Chinese operation with fake certs of origin and questionable metal that showed corrosion holes (It’s Not titanium if it did). News just keeps getting better and better Jah?
I am wondering if SWA’s competitive “win at all costs….us against them attitude” could be a factor in these incidents. They have a tendency to fly fast and cut other carriers off when they can and it’s not the best way to operate. My first thought when I heard about the Dutch Roll incident was perhaps they were flying too fast?
Dear JohnW….Airlines fly as fast as the air traffic controllers tell them ! And airlines don’t “cut off” other airlines ! Movement on the ground is also controlled by ground controllers !
Pablo, twice in my career I’ve had an airplane that was told to hold short of a taxiway, than ignore it, pull ahead of me and than say they didn’t hear the controller. It was with enough spacing that it wasn’t unsafe, it just allowed their plane to get ahead in the take off sequence. Both times, you guessed it, SWA, I’m not alone with that experience…..also you are in fact assigned a cruise speed but you can request clearance to increase your speed if traffic permits.
SWA does in fact have a reputation for “aggressive self interest” throughout the industry. I recall their pilot union chief proudly stating they are “aggressively predatory”……..
No Pablo. Southwest regularly cuts, and hurries on the ramp. They are notorious for taxiing fast and trying to jump the line interisland.
Great Job BOH on this report.
In reference to DEI industry wide, remember that nepotism was rampant in the pilot world and they were young Caucasian. The original DEI and that has led to the current DEI to make a change in the demographic. Only qualified pilots are being hired and there is no proof otherwise.
As you noted, Hawaiian’s experience in Hawaii does mean a lot. Let’s be honest, incidents can happen on any carrier. At their core all US airlines are safe. Inter Island flying is usually a fair weather pleasant experience, however when the rare bad weather days arise or a volcano erupts etc, Hawaiians experience does make a substantial difference. It’s not uncommon for a SWA inter island pilot having never flown in Kona winds or even done more than a few flights in Hawaii. Experience is good.
Respectfully, “the islands” do Not come even close as a contender to hold a monopoly on challenging weather or terrain.
As someone who has years of Part 121 eastern pacific flying, I would offer the most challenging aspect of Hawaii flying is evaluating your conditions/options to continue the flight over the halfway point.
OGG, HNL, KOA take a back seat to Orange County, Burbank, DCA, LGA, and others. I would invite anyone to examine the 365 days of Denver, CO flying–or the entirety of the US Gulf Coast–winter operations in the Canda or the Northeastern United States–any number of Mexican destinations which U.S. carriers frequent daily.
There is a much larger problem within the industry–not suitable to an article’s comment section.
JF…you are correct that Inter Island flying is quite benevolent most of the time. However it’s the rarity of extreme weather that makes it tricky. You can go from beautiful clear skies for months, to facing a landing in a half mile visibility in driving rain, moderate turbulence and 30 knot crosswind. If you aren’t prepared or behind the airplane due to being unfamiliar with the islands it can be a bit of a challenge. Inter island has its own set of challenges and experience is very beneficial when conditions like this flight had arises.
If this is the incident I heard of elsewhere, the gyrations were described as a “dutch roll” where the aircraft simultaneously yaws back and forth horizontally while also twisting in a partial roll side to side. Stuff on the aircraft itself ended up damaged from the violence of the maneuver.
“Reminiscent of the United Airlines Boeing 787 Dreamliner plunge incident which occurred off Maui.” – Need to correct this paragraph heading. As you note in the following language, it was a United 777, not a 787, in that situation.
I was flying from Honolulu to San Diego June 5th on Hawaiian flight 16. Airbus 330. As we approached Lindburg at 800 ft wheels down the thrusters came on full. Back up we went. The captain said they lost visibility. We circled around for 15 min or so and landed. Don’t know how common that is. I’ve flown a lot and never experienced that. I hope never again. 😬
We have experienced that previously at San Diego. Others may comment, but it appears to be something that happens there. At Lindbergh Field we at least can’t help but be reminded of that PSA incident from 1978.
Larry, SAN has higher landing minimums due to the surrounding terrain and a shorter runway that doesn’t allow for an auto land in low visibility situations. They get the same coastal fog or marine layer as LAX or SFO but SAN requires better visibility to land. So a go around is more likely. Go around’s are not unsafe, trying to land when you shouldn’t is. Again, it’s experience that counts in situations like this. Your pilot did what he did to keep you safe.
Thankfully due to the implementation of the TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system)after that PSA crash and the mid air one over Cerritos makes the likelihood of a collision like that very slim
In May I was on a Hawiian flight from LIH to HNL. The flight departed to the south and because of severe weather over the chanel we flew a very long circular route to the south before arriving for a somewhat normal approach to HNL.
San Diego had a very thick marine layer this year which lasted almost 2 weeks with little to no sun at the coast.
Even though most approaches to San Diego are east to west the standard ILS approach is west to east. GPS has helped a lot with this but terrain is still an issue.
The 1978 PSA crash happened on a crystal clear, cloudless morning. It happened when a student pilot and instructor were practicing the ILS approach and departure, west to east, and collided with an incoming, east to west, 727 that was on final approach. Students are no longer allowed to practice this approach.
Finally, Lindbergh Field is no longer officially Lindbergh Field. It is San Diego International Airport.
Johannes L: Sooooo??
Experienced (US) flight crews know how to safely and efficiently do their job. Day in and day out. They deal with WX, mechanicals and all other challenges the same way. Safety first. They have incredible in-flight hardware and ground-based experts and know how to use them.
So you are responding to?
A concuring observation to JohnW’s post? A lived experience on a recent flight? A tragic historical event that happened a few miles from my home, and in my living memory?
P.S.
The PSA accident was a major driver of the current airspace designation system of Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, and Golf and their requirements and limitations.
Cathy M
Perhaps governments and airlines should not mass require injections operating under an emergency use authorization. That would have helped the pilot shortage. 🙏🏼
Sorry Cathy you’ve been duped by the anti vax internet folks. The pilot shortage is at the regional/express carriers level, the fallout from their years of terribly low pay scales. The carriers like SWA HA DAL UAL etc have plenty of applicants .Hiring is totally unaffected by the vaccine mandate of a couple years ago. Just like the anti DEI myths circulating on the Internet…a lot of lies are being circulated.
Anyone that’s flown a lot around the islands and especially in the northern pacific knows how the weather can toss you around once in a while. None the climb or decent rates mentioned are unusual and the SW pilot appropriately took control. So in the future why don’t you write something useful like encouraging passengers to always buckle in -period. In the northern Pacific it can happen at 35,000 feet.
Once again, why anyone would fly both southworst and on any 737 MAX knowing the issues they both have is mind boggling. This could have ended very badly.
Aloha,
“The flight’s captain had assigned the less experienced first officer to pilot the short journey, despite dealing with the extremely challenging weather.”
This was a major lapse in judgement by the captain.
Mahalo
The fact that they managed to regain control suggests that it could have been a temporary loss of lift due to a microburst during the described “treacherous weather.” A microburst occurring directly behind the aircraft’s flight path can result in a sudden loss of lift. It might not have had anything to do with the aircraft or the pilots’ relative experience.
Sounds like it was, in point of fact, the Captain who was able to regain control, regardless of the microburst theory. An argument favoring having most experienced pilots on any flights when weather may be a factor. That day was one, as “obscured visibility” was right there in the description of the event.
So many variables to consider when flying in and out of the islands. It’s no easy feat, and I commend the pilots.
I always thank the staff them when I board and deboard.
Newer pilots are a bit ‘wet behind the ears’ and this can lead to errors, maybe there needs to be more lengthy training and flying before tackling the challenging weather trips.
I fly to Kauai for my 1st time Wed on Southwest. Now I’m wishing I’d gone with Hawaiian for the island specific experience level. I hadn’t really thought of that. I do worry about safety as a former flight attendant, and anyone whose paying attention, I have some trust issues regarding safety and experience in general. I’m grateful the Cpt was able to save the flight from disaster. Amazing how no one said anything on social media about this scary situation. Hope this close call can help safety and training focus need areas for us all.
Have to say, as I read more about this……seems to be yet again a clear cut example of SWA’s lack of experience flying inter island in play here. Things happen quickly in a jet on a 20 min flight. Throw in bad weather and unfamiliarity issues and problems are more likely to arise. It’s as simple as that. It’s one more reason why the Alaska/ Hawaiian merger as structured is so brilliant…..it will assure an experienced local airline presence.
@Rob T…
Really? Really? What would make you think it has Anything to do with DEI? Can’t you leave that kind of stuff at home?
Also just breaking news wise, fake titanium was used in the construction of some 787’s and 737’s by Spirit Aerospace bought from a Turkish supplier which had sourced it from a fraudulent Chinese operation with fake certs of origin and questionable metal that showed corrosion holes (It’s Not titanium if it did). News just keeps getting better and better Jah?
Best Regards
Sounds like operator error to me.
Another reason to never fly Southwest
What is it that you mean by this?
I am wondering if SWA’s competitive “win at all costs….us against them attitude” could be a factor in these incidents. They have a tendency to fly fast and cut other carriers off when they can and it’s not the best way to operate. My first thought when I heard about the Dutch Roll incident was perhaps they were flying too fast?
Dear JohnW….Airlines fly as fast as the air traffic controllers tell them ! And airlines don’t “cut off” other airlines ! Movement on the ground is also controlled by ground controllers !
Pablo, twice in my career I’ve had an airplane that was told to hold short of a taxiway, than ignore it, pull ahead of me and than say they didn’t hear the controller. It was with enough spacing that it wasn’t unsafe, it just allowed their plane to get ahead in the take off sequence. Both times, you guessed it, SWA, I’m not alone with that experience…..also you are in fact assigned a cruise speed but you can request clearance to increase your speed if traffic permits.
SWA does in fact have a reputation for “aggressive self interest” throughout the industry. I recall their pilot union chief proudly stating they are “aggressively predatory”……..
No Pablo. Southwest regularly cuts, and hurries on the ramp. They are notorious for taxiing fast and trying to jump the line interisland.
Great Job BOH on this report.
In reference to DEI industry wide, remember that nepotism was rampant in the pilot world and they were young Caucasian. The original DEI and that has led to the current DEI to make a change in the demographic. Only qualified pilots are being hired and there is no proof otherwise.
As you noted, Hawaiian’s experience in Hawaii does mean a lot. Let’s be honest, incidents can happen on any carrier. At their core all US airlines are safe. Inter Island flying is usually a fair weather pleasant experience, however when the rare bad weather days arise or a volcano erupts etc, Hawaiians experience does make a substantial difference. It’s not uncommon for a SWA inter island pilot having never flown in Kona winds or even done more than a few flights in Hawaii. Experience is good.
Respectfully, “the islands” do Not come even close as a contender to hold a monopoly on challenging weather or terrain.
As someone who has years of Part 121 eastern pacific flying, I would offer the most challenging aspect of Hawaii flying is evaluating your conditions/options to continue the flight over the halfway point.
OGG, HNL, KOA take a back seat to Orange County, Burbank, DCA, LGA, and others. I would invite anyone to examine the 365 days of Denver, CO flying–or the entirety of the US Gulf Coast–winter operations in the Canda or the Northeastern United States–any number of Mexican destinations which U.S. carriers frequent daily.
There is a much larger problem within the industry–not suitable to an article’s comment section.
JF…you are correct that Inter Island flying is quite benevolent most of the time. However it’s the rarity of extreme weather that makes it tricky. You can go from beautiful clear skies for months, to facing a landing in a half mile visibility in driving rain, moderate turbulence and 30 knot crosswind. If you aren’t prepared or behind the airplane due to being unfamiliar with the islands it can be a bit of a challenge. Inter island has its own set of challenges and experience is very beneficial when conditions like this flight had arises.
The problem rest solely with that horrible airline
If this is the incident I heard of elsewhere, the gyrations were described as a “dutch roll” where the aircraft simultaneously yaws back and forth horizontally while also twisting in a partial roll side to side. Stuff on the aircraft itself ended up damaged from the violence of the maneuver.
Surprising that we’re only hearing of this now.
Hi Jeff.
This is *absolutely not* the Dutch Roll incident previously reported. That took place on a flight from Phoenix to Oakland.
Aloha.
This sounds more like the lion air incident!
“Reminiscent of the United Airlines Boeing 787 Dreamliner plunge incident which occurred off Maui.” – Need to correct this paragraph heading. As you note in the following language, it was a United 777, not a 787, in that situation.
Hi JJ.
Thanks, we caught and corrected that plane type. It was a Dreamliner.
Aloha.
I was flying from Honolulu to San Diego June 5th on Hawaiian flight 16. Airbus 330. As we approached Lindburg at 800 ft wheels down the thrusters came on full. Back up we went. The captain said they lost visibility. We circled around for 15 min or so and landed. Don’t know how common that is. I’ve flown a lot and never experienced that. I hope never again. 😬
Hi Larry.
We have experienced that previously at San Diego. Others may comment, but it appears to be something that happens there. At Lindbergh Field we at least can’t help but be reminded of that PSA incident from 1978.
Aloha.
Larry, SAN has higher landing minimums due to the surrounding terrain and a shorter runway that doesn’t allow for an auto land in low visibility situations. They get the same coastal fog or marine layer as LAX or SFO but SAN requires better visibility to land. So a go around is more likely. Go around’s are not unsafe, trying to land when you shouldn’t is. Again, it’s experience that counts in situations like this. Your pilot did what he did to keep you safe.
Thankfully due to the implementation of the TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system)after that PSA crash and the mid air one over Cerritos makes the likelihood of a collision like that very slim
In May I was on a Hawiian flight from LIH to HNL. The flight departed to the south and because of severe weather over the chanel we flew a very long circular route to the south before arriving for a somewhat normal approach to HNL.
San Diego had a very thick marine layer this year which lasted almost 2 weeks with little to no sun at the coast.
Even though most approaches to San Diego are east to west the standard ILS approach is west to east. GPS has helped a lot with this but terrain is still an issue.
The 1978 PSA crash happened on a crystal clear, cloudless morning. It happened when a student pilot and instructor were practicing the ILS approach and departure, west to east, and collided with an incoming, east to west, 727 that was on final approach. Students are no longer allowed to practice this approach.
Finally, Lindbergh Field is no longer officially Lindbergh Field. It is San Diego International Airport.
Johannes L: Sooooo??
Experienced (US) flight crews know how to safely and efficiently do their job. Day in and day out. They deal with WX, mechanicals and all other challenges the same way. Safety first. They have incredible in-flight hardware and ground-based experts and know how to use them.
‘Nuf said.
So you are responding to?
A concuring observation to JohnW’s post? A lived experience on a recent flight? A tragic historical event that happened a few miles from my home, and in my living memory?
P.S.
The PSA accident was a major driver of the current airspace designation system of Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, and Golf and their requirements and limitations.
Perhaps governments and airlines should not mass require injections operating under an emergency use authorization. That would have helped the pilot shortage. 🙏🏼
Tell us you know nothing without telling us you know nothing
Sorry Cathy you’ve been duped by the anti vax internet folks. The pilot shortage is at the regional/express carriers level, the fallout from their years of terribly low pay scales. The carriers like SWA HA DAL UAL etc have plenty of applicants .Hiring is totally unaffected by the vaccine mandate of a couple years ago. Just like the anti DEI myths circulating on the Internet…a lot of lies are being circulated.
Cathy is correct. No duping. Real facts. The blinders must be removed, if it isn’t too late already.
Anyone that’s flown a lot around the islands and especially in the northern pacific knows how the weather can toss you around once in a while. None the climb or decent rates mentioned are unusual and the SW pilot appropriately took control. So in the future why don’t you write something useful like encouraging passengers to always buckle in -period. In the northern Pacific it can happen at 35,000 feet.
Once again, why anyone would fly both southworst and on any 737 MAX knowing the issues they both have is mind boggling. This could have ended very badly.
This shows what exactly happed. Poor training and a lot of errors
gulfnews.com/business/aviation/southwest-airlines-boeing-flight-experiences-terrifying-dutch-roll-with-175-passengers-onboard-1.1718389499667
Hi Walter.
That is not the same incident at all.
Aloha.
Why is this link here? This has Nothing to do with the article. Readers may very well confuse the 2 incidents ! Moderators?
Dare I say that the most experienced pilots do the interisland flying since the challenges of such flying are already well known?
Aloha,
“The flight’s captain had assigned the less experienced first officer to pilot the short journey, despite dealing with the extremely challenging weather.”
This was a major lapse in judgement by the captain.
Mahalo
The fact that they managed to regain control suggests that it could have been a temporary loss of lift due to a microburst during the described “treacherous weather.” A microburst occurring directly behind the aircraft’s flight path can result in a sudden loss of lift. It might not have had anything to do with the aircraft or the pilots’ relative experience.
or the lovely software that unsafe aircraft has on it could have possibly been the culprit once again.
But any layperson gets a little nervous when they see “Boeing” in that sentence.
Sounds like it was, in point of fact, the Captain who was able to regain control, regardless of the microburst theory. An argument favoring having most experienced pilots on any flights when weather may be a factor. That day was one, as “obscured visibility” was right there in the description of the event.
So many variables to consider when flying in and out of the islands. It’s no easy feat, and I commend the pilots.
I always thank the staff them when I board and deboard.
Newer pilots are a bit ‘wet behind the ears’ and this can lead to errors, maybe there needs to be more lengthy training and flying before tackling the challenging weather trips.
Mahalo
I fly to Kauai for my 1st time Wed on Southwest. Now I’m wishing I’d gone with Hawaiian for the island specific experience level. I hadn’t really thought of that. I do worry about safety as a former flight attendant, and anyone whose paying attention, I have some trust issues regarding safety and experience in general. I’m grateful the Cpt was able to save the flight from disaster. Amazing how no one said anything on social media about this scary situation. Hope this close call can help safety and training focus need areas for us all.
Thanks for your reporting 👍🏽