United’s CEO, Scott Kirby, spoke at their third-quarter earnings call this week and said that “customers can book with confidence on United. If you are booking on an airline that doesn’t have a vaccine requirement, they’ve got government rules they have to follow and caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).” He pointed to the possibility of serious problems ahead in operations at other airlines. United is one of the leading airlines to Hawaii. It is poised for another round of island expansion in 2022.
One particular airline was UAL was referring to was not mentioned by name. That airline is Southwest since their employees can continue working if they want an exemption to the vaccine mandate and test regularly.
You’ll recall that Southwest had a meltdown that reached Hawaii less than two weeks ago. It remains unclear what the cause of Southwest’s problems was, although it remains rumored to have at least in part been related to pending employee vaccination mandates, especially for pilots.
Hawaiian Airlines has mandated all of its employees be vaccinated.
In August, Hawaii bellwether Hawaiian Airlines issued an employee vaccine mandate. CEO Peter Ingram said that all US-based employees must be vaccinated by November 1.
Alaska Airlines employees must also be vaccinated.
Earlier this month, Hawaii-centric Alaska Airlines announced its COVID-19 vaccine mandate for employees. That was a shift from last month when the company said that vaccination was encouraged and financially rewarded. From now on, “all employees will now be required to be fully vaccinated or be approved for a reasonable accommodation.”
American Airlines and its pilots’ union disagree.
American Airlines has said that the company won’t accede to their pilots’ union attempt to permit “alternatives” to a vaccine mandate for employees. The federal government has said that contractors’ (airline) employees must be fully vaccinated by December 8. AA’s CEO said, “our team members need to be vaccinated. It’s really important for our business, for our company, to get the pandemic under control. We want every one of our team members to be vaccinated and, equally important, we want every one of our team members to have a job and continue to work at American.”
Pilots’ union speaks up about bigger issue Airline safety first, vaccinations second.
In another clear shot at Texas-based Southwest Airlines and especially American Airlines, pilots are being admonished to focus on safety rather than vaccine mandates.
The Allied Pilots Association representing American Airlines said, “Distractions cannot affect safety. We are seeing distractions in the flight deck that can create dangerous situations.”
Are you more inclined to fly an airline that requires all employees to be vaccinated?
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Valerie F:
How do you live with it around people like you if you have had 4 kidney transplants and a compromised immune system?
NO to mandates—do your own risk assessment. If you have health issues, then do what you need to do. Flying is cleaner than it has ever been anyway and I feel safer now!!
I have always wiped down my area before seating back when people would look at me like I am a germaphobe—
this has gotten way out of hand. Time to move on and live with it.
“No” to your question “Are you more inclined to fly an airline that requires all employees to be vaccinated?” Absolutely the opposite. I am about to book a flight from Kona to Oahu. I just checked to see who has mandates for employees. I see that Hawaiian does so I am booking with Southwest even though the hours less convenient. Our governments are not following the science. Thank you. Katherine R
The problem here is that people think if all are vaccinated, somehow the virus magically disappears or prevents them (the vaccinated) from getting it. That’s just not the case. If you’re the one vaccinated the other people being vaccinated has nothing to do with you! It’s like a meme I saw…
“I hate allergy season. I took my Claritin but no one else did so it’s not working…”
Don’t force a mandate if you’re expecting to be safe. You do you and don’t worry about the others.
No I am not inclined to fly on airlines requiring. I support you should have a choice to inject in your body or not…a few of my vaccinated friends getting Covid.
There are now over 80 published scientific studies that show natural immunity is more robust than the vaccine. We are also seeing the vaccine effectiveness decreasing after 6 months. How long will the “fully vaccinated” be considered “fully vaccinated”? How many boosters will be mandating to be considered “fully vaccinated”? This nonsense has gone on long enough. If we want to continue hurting the economy, ruining our country, & destroying an a already short handed work force, keep the mandates.
The answer to your question us NO! I don’t believe the government(white house) should be mandating anything. If they think everyone should be vaccinated then pass a law, don’t mandate. Also, if the vaccine works then the people that decide to not get vaccinated won’t be doing harm to anyone except their self and maybe like minded others that decided not to get vaccinated. I will be flying Southwest to Maui this January unless Hawaii decides to Mandate too many more crazy rules!!
BoH – “Are you more inclined to fly an airline that requires all employees to be vaccinated?”
Nope, not at all…and why would it matter, when it makes no difference if both vaccinated and unvaccinated people are contracting and transmitting the virus? The mass media’s illusion that it’s safer for vaccinated people to fly is a Myth.
In all probability there will be a price to be paid somewhere down the road for those not adhering to the rules.
Thank you for the car rental information. As for me, I will not return to Hawaii until the prices come down, way down
I’m still going just going to Uber to resort and get plenty of exercise walking to my favorite places.
The last point in your article is most crucial of all, politicizing this issue has seeped into the cockpit and that’s dangerous. Personally I would avoid AA and SWA for that reasons more then the few that are not vaxed. It appears that Texas spirit has gotten a little out of hand there. APA made that statement based on true incidents.
“…politicizing this issue has seeped into the cockpit and that’s dangerous. Personally I would avoid AA and SWA for that reasons…”
🤦♂️ The irony…making your point by fear-mongering isn’t any better. At this point there’s Zero correlation between pilots taking a stand for their “right Not to be forced into taking a drug that can disable or kill them” and “safety in the skies”. Frankly, the exact opposite (since people have died) could be more reasonably argued as “dangerous”. 🤷♂️
Distractions in the cockpit are dangerous, a crew at odds with each other is a potential danger and their are some very militant vaxer and anti vaxer personalities as we have all seen. This is similar to the conflict mergers can cause or a strike. It can get out of hand. Again this has gone beyond personal choice and been politicized…..that’s dangerous in the cockpit. So definitely not your “zero correlation”.
Otherwise APA wouldn’t have said it themselves.
JOHNW. There have been no recorded incidents of cockpit dissension regarding imaginary vax or no-vax flight crews.
Curtis, read the last sentence of the article, the American Airlines pilots union would beg to differ…..think I’ll go with their
perspective.
“The Allied Pilots Association representing American Airlines said, “Distractions cannot affect safety. We are seeing distractions in the flight deck that can create dangerous situations.” ”
Again, CAN is the operative word, and you don’t seem to grasp that. At this point, Curtis is 100% correct, since presumption is not fact. A comment like this, from the Allied Pilots Association, is subjective opinion, likely from Management, and it could be misleading. So, until it’s Fact, it’s NOT.
My stepson is a Captain with SWA and said that no vaccination dissension has seeped into the cockpit. Flying is as safe as ever. I’ll go with his perspective
wanna bet
Curtis, good on your stepson, he’s likely doing a good job like most pilots of keeping politics out of the cockpit.
But the unions at AA and SWA who get feedback from a lot of pilots are saying something different. Some crews are not doing as good a job as your stepson.
🙄 You have opinions, great John, but you have Zero proof of any correlation between “distractions”, “militant personalities”, and what’s going on “in the cockpit”. Saying “It can get out of hand” is opinionated conjecture and has no basis in fact. It’s frankly disrespectful to pilots, 99% whom take the safety of their crew & passengers 100% seriously. This was politicized division long before SWA made this supporting decision, and it’s always been about personal choice, for half the country.
Jim, you somehow think you are correct and the statement by APA is false? One of the major enhancements to airline safety in the last 30 years has been the development of Cockpit Resource Management training. It’s been crucial to eliminating the many accidents that had been caused by crews letting personality differences interfere with the job at hand. You have no clue what my background is nor I yours😀.
JOHNW, please list the “many accidents” that have been caused by personality differences.
John, I did not infer/imply that the statement made by the APA is false at all. In fact, I said “presumption is not fact” and that it was “subjective opinion”.
Yes, I am correct, as you have yet to prove anything, and all you’ve done to this point is deflect. You were point blank asked by Curtis, “JOHNW, please list the “many accidents” that have been caused by personality differences.”.
Jim you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about the relationship between APA and management. In addition, your “vaccine is dangerous “ mantra is supported by proven spreaders of misinformation like America’s Frontline Doctors/Q anon/ Mercola etc. That should at least give you some skepticism on that side of the debate.
The vaccines are saving lives on a mass scale, not ending them.
John, I do understand what the role of the APA is. I also understand they have a leadership structure, which I referred to as “management”. Don’t conflate my words into your own definition.
I don’t have a “mantra”. I made an direct point that the argument could be made that a pilot could be affected by the vaccine, as it has disabled and killed people.
You have been called out and asked a few times now, to provide proof of what you are claiming. Show the “correlation” (not opinion or conjecture) between “distractions-in the cockpit”, “personality differences”/”militant vaxer/anti-vaxer personalities”, and these supposed “many accidents that had been caused by crews letting personality differences interfere with the job at hand”.
Just saw this….the accident’s are too extensive to mention all. Tenirefe, United DC 8 in PDX , the list goes on and on of accidents caused by a poor crew dynamics. . Fortunately, thanks to CRM training it happens much less often. Don’t take my word for it , google CRM and aircraft accident. The other end of the spectrum, United at Iowa City saved lives by using their CRM training.
Ummm, John, what’s with the red herring? I never suggested CRM doesn’t work or it’s a bad thing. I understand that it works. It’s called the Human Factor and this is why CRM evolved. Both of those disasters were definitely bad pilot decision making due to distractions; however, neither show any “correlation between “distractions-in the cockpit” with “personality differences” and the supposed “many accidents that have been caused by personality differences.” …🤦♂️
I’m against all of these not so thought out mandates. Maybe all of our so called politicians should be mandated to care for its citizens in stead of power grabbing. So to answer to the question, yes I would.
We’ve flown on 10 SWA flights in the last year. Our contacts with the flight attendants last approximately 45 seconds per flight. That is when they hand us our beverage and bag of pretzels. We have absolutely no contact with the flight crew. I haven’t felt the least bit threatened as to whether any of them are vaccinated or not.
I have flown more, since this started, and I have had one interaction with a Pilot (SWA) who was flying on his last flight before retiring. The conversation was all of 20 seconds, as we walked the gateway to the terminal, where there were some crew and (it appeared) a few family members that were allowed to meet him as a surprise, as he deplaned.
Softest touchdown in (at least) the last 3 years of flying, by the way, and he was a pleasure to chat with. I bet he’s now glad he retired then…
I have lost about 40% of my lung function from a rare genetic disease that is progressive. I want to travel as much as I can before I become oxygen dependent. I will NOT fly on an airline that does not require employees to be vaccinated to protect me from getting infected by them. Yes I know all risks can’t be eliminated, but vaccination helps protect people like me. A big THANK YOU to everyone who makes an effort to protect others from COVID!
You’re at greater risk from someone who has been vaccinated, and is Not tested before getting on a plane, than someone who is Not vaccinated, has tested Negative and is allowed to get on the same plane. I’m afraid you’ve been duped into believing a fallacy, if you think that the vaccinated who aren’t being tested are safer to fly with than the unvaccinated who tests negative.
After a lifetime of Hawaii travel, including UH-Hilo for grad work back in 1975, I can’t believe what’s happened to the islands. I’m not reading about the many residents/business owners and those who own rentals, who have suffered under crushing and changing policies. How many businesses have closed, how many empty strip malls/shops/closed businesses actually are there now/percentages of closed businesses and rental losses? Why weren’t covid funds used for them/hospital upgrades? Thank you.
I read that Delta Airlines has decided not to mandate vaccinations of their employees. That airline wasn’t mentioned in the article. I’m sorry that the other airlines are agreeing to the pressure from the government. Only medical personnel should be making those decisions.
I am guessing our government said to all the airlines, you must follow our mask mandate or no more federal funds for you. Just think about this. We must wear a mask in all airports, wear a mask on the plane because it a federal mandate for both. This includes all airport, airline employees, vendors. If the mask works, why do we need the mandatory shot? I got the both shots and getting the booster shortly, but it was my choice to receive the shots.
Vaccinations, wearing a mask,6ft, washing hands, don’t touch your face, cough into your elbow are all the components to getting on top of this virus. One alone does not prevent getting it.
Let’s be perfectly clear…ALL of them together Do Not “prevent getting it”, but they may help.
If your too afraid to travel, then Don’t; but, do Not buy into the fact that all these things are going to keep you safe, if you fly. It’s just another fallacy you’ve been been conditioned to believe, if you think/believe this way…🤷♂️
Although I personally can’t agree with a mandate, I am more apt to consider an airlines that has staff who are vaccinated.
Bree, I am curious, Why…what is your logic behind your reasoning?
Why would you not prefer that everyone be tested, since you can contract and transmit the disease after vaccination. You also you have a better chance to hide the virus, because you may not get as sick, or not get sick at all, after vaccination. How do you justify that people who fly not all should be tested?
Does it make you wonder, “what’s next”? “To the back of the (Air) Bus” for those who aren’t vaccinated…🤷♂️
I’m much more likely to fly on an airline that has vaccine requirements for their employees. Just as I am much more likely to eat in a restaurant that has vaccine requirements and shop in a shop that has vaccine requirements.
I’m sure the vocal minority will put up a fuss but fortunately they are just that, a minority.
According to the “Thumbs Up’s” at comments on this blog, You don’t seem to grasp who the vocal minority is…
i am more inclined to fly airlines which provide accommodations for their employees
i will go out of my way to not fly on airlines which impose unethical mandates on their employees at the threat of their career. The whole mandate to get vaccinated is nonsense, as the vaccine doesnt prevent spread. A responsible airline would be testing all of its employees regularly regardless of vaccine status
The efficacy of the vaccination is to reduce the chances of getting covid. It never claimed to be 100% protection. That’s never been said. It does however reduce the severity if you catch it. A responsible airline would ensure all of their employees get the vaccine to reduce their chances of getting a severe case of Covid. Testing can produce false negatives that give everyone a false sense of security and in turn enables the employee to spread it to others.
Wrong…early on the claim from some was that it Would prevent the spread (a blatant lie). Vaccines clearly don’t prevent transmission, and their efficacy is more and more in doubt. What was it 96% (or so) at release, to prevent the spread? As time goes on we’re seeing that contraction/natural immunity is the best course of resolve. Feel free to keep taking it, but don’t be naïve in thinking 100% should, when people are STILL dying after doing so. It should be a choice, not a “mandate”, period.
Totally agree safety first, this vaccine mandates need to stop, we have a choice what each one chooses is nobody elses beeswax, I am on the plane flying and the person beside me has measles the one behind me as mumps and the one between is HIV do we question any of these people to see if they are vaccinated??? The new normal is getting back to NORMAL!!!
This!!! We’re surrounded by various pathogens all the time, many more threatening than SARS-Cov19. Good hand washing, optimizing one’s personal Immune system, & prudence are always good practices.
It’s well documented that vaccinated still spread this virus, & many studies indicate more so than than anyone unvaxxef. Check out case rates in vastly vaxxed populations like Israel. Informed consent MUST remain a healthcare standard, NOT govt mandates.
Seriously? More threatening than COVID? That’s not true. And we know that vaxxed can catch it. And others can also catch it from them – IF you’re not following Covid protocols. But the unvaxxed are in the lead of passing this virus to others. You’re comment leaves us to be suspicious about “vastly vaxxed” Israel. If you’re unvaxxed you are 100% likely to catch it and pass it along. If you’re vaxxed you have a 5% chance of catching it.
In the end protocols still need to be followed.
“If you’re unvaxxed you are 100% likely to catch it and pass it along. If you’re vaxxed you have a 5% chance of catching it.”
Seriously? That’s ridiculous! 🤣 There is no statistic anywhere that shows (let alone proves) that “If you’re unvaxxed you are 100% likely to catch it and pass it along.” The only thing accurate in that statement is that it’s 100% False…LOL
Please show me where you can factually prove that “vaxxed” only “have a 5% chance of catching it”… 🙄
Absolutely! I want to fly with an airline where all employees are vaccinated as well as all passengers!
You should find another form of transportation then…
These mandates put in place by POTUS are going to cause more hardships for the airline industry and it’s employees and customers than anything else. Not all, but a majority of airline employees are not anti-vax. They are anti-mandate. Big difference. The transportation industry as a whole is being crippled by this administration and the airlines are just one piece of that. I believe we have more worries on the horizon than a missed flight to Hawaii.
A pilot spends his entire career digesting new and continually evolving safety mandates… it goes with the job, this is pure politics seeping into a job that shouldn’t do that. History will view this as a black mark on the profession. Safety should be priority number one. SWA should leave their politics in Texas and not force them on Hawai’i
Way to go Kelly!!! Testing twice weekly sends people to the hospital or death, vaccine’s do not.
Respectfully can you please explain that comment. I’ve read nothing about getting tested for Covid ever causing death.
I have heard of cases where people getting the vaccine have died. I’m not opposed to the vaccine…just trying to understand what you are trying to say
Thanks
If it’s such a danger to fly without a vaccine why were we flying before the vaccine? Why were we being told there is basically zero chance of spreading the virus because of how places are built with the air handlers? I guess maybe that too was fake news? We’re we being lied to?
As always the regulations that make flying as safe as it is a continuously evolving process based on the latest data available.
That’s what keeps flying safe, the continual evolvement of the latest and best safety practices.
Majority of the population respected the request for *essential travel only before the vaccine. The capacity restrictions also played a part. That was the difference.
Southwest all the way!!! Good for them to stand up against the JAB mandate!!!
Jeff . I’m fully vaccinated 70 years old in great shape. I want to keep our freedoms and flew multiple times before vaccine. I’m in support of SW.
require vac just like I know my grandkids that go to public schools will have all their necessary vacs. bob d
No!! I would rather fly with airlines that are more concerned with our freedoms. Let me worry about my safety. We are losing our liberties and freedoms more and more each day. Thank goodness for those willing to fight for their individual rights!!!
Re: Southwest meltdown, I have heard 2 industry explanations. 1) Southwest runs a point to point system as compared to the Legacy airlines that use hub + spoke. So planes + staff could not get into position when things started to disintegrate.
Also, Southwest does Not have reciprocal agreements with the legacy carriers to place passengers on competitor flights with open seats.
2) SWA added 30 routes when historically they averaged only 1 per year over last 30 yrs. add staffing issues= hot mess
Absolutely not! I will not fly airlines that mandate vaccinations for their employees or customers.
Pilots have a higher risk of blood clots since they sit in the cockpit for hours. Wouldn’t want that to happen to my flight crew in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
Any pilot that thinks he safer doing his job unvaccinated then vaccinated likely has poor critical thinking skills
I think the reverse is true!!!
I’d wager that there are thousands of pilots who agree that people who can’t form a proper sentence would likely have poor critical thinking skills.
Not quite sure how someone did in English class defines the value of their perspective? One of the biggest steps back iour national discourse has taken is people thinking they can insult someone to validate their point…..we’ve all seen how petty name calling or insults actually describes the person going down that path rather then who they are talking about. No hard feelings!😀
Says the guy who blatantly insulted pilots suggesting “poor critical thinking skills”, because they disagree with his ideology on the safety of doing their job…not willing to inject themselves with a drug that could potentially be disabling or fatal.
“…we’ve all seen how petty name calling or insults actually describes the person going down that path rather then who they are talking about.”…Yeah, I chased you down that rabbit hole, and called you out on it too. No hard feelings taken! 😉
Thanks BOH! My family would absolutely choose an airline that mandates employee vaccination over one that does not.
Seems like a no-brainer to me.
I’m sure many will disagree with me, just scroll past.
Mahalo
Please share the logic behind your no-brainer decision… Why not just test everyone, since a vaccinated person can contract and spread the virus just like an unvaccinated person?
The “no-brainer” is actually not supporting the segregation and division that’s being pushed on society, that people (like you) apparently are buying into. 🤷♂️
I would prefer to fly with an airline who does not force the vaccine mandate. It makes more sense to just test all employees weekly, vaccinated or not. Thats the only safe way. You still get covid with a vaccine and can still spread it. So just vaccinating people will NOT stop the spread, but testing would help more. Because of this I do not support any business that will fire an employee for choosing to not get it. That is a personal choice.
Airline employees (any companies employees, for that matter) should not be forced to get vaccinated. I would choose an airline for NOT making it mandated over one that does! This overreach is out of control, to include Gov. Ige’s message to welcome back the vaccinated tourists! Honestly Hawaii keeps slipping further and further on my list of places to visit in the future.
Yes I will only fly on an airline with a vaccine mandate.
Doing a mileage run from KOA to BOS next month. I am glad to be flying on Hawaiian who has a vaccine mandate.
Getting booster Pfizer dose on Saturday.
People should not have the freedom of choice to infect others.
That’s what happens when you live in a “me first” country.
Thanks for the update.
“People should not have the freedom of choice to infect others.”
The utter Irony is you’re promoting “me first”, as you’re posturing that vaccination gives you a “free pass”. This False Sense of Entitlement fails to acknowledge that you are NOT immune, and you too CAN spread the virus.
Breaking News: You’re NOT privileged because you got the Jab, and you don’t get to dictate that other people “should not have the freedom of choice to infect others”, while you still can?! 🙄🤦♂️
Unvaccinated employees are not an issue for me. Air handling systems on planes are some of the cleanest air you’ll breath anywhere. That and voluntary masking hand washing by fliers are sufficient.
Are you more inclined to fly an airline that requires all employees to be vaccinated?
No. I believe that individuals should not be subjected to vaccine mandates as a condition of employment. I believe the choice to be vaccinated or not should be an individual and personal decision. I will be flying Southwest exclusively for the time being.
Yes, I will definitely fly an airline that requires its employees to be vaccinated. This isn’t about “personal freedoms”. It’s a pandemic and as such, all else gets put on the back burner.
Hey Tammmy b. I’m glad my dad fought for George Patton in WW2 as a tank driver for mine and your freedom.
I work with Rosie the Riveters (one whose husband was also in a tank under Patton) and WW2 Vets and am thankful for their sacrifice. “Freedom” doesn’t extend to a virus. A virus doesn’t care about individual “freedoms” or countries. It’s an equal opportunity virus.
Speaking of the “The Greatest Generation “, our country came together after December 7th and made many sacrifices to further the war effort. Can’t help but think how selfish they would think the anti mask/vax stand is.
What is your opinion on employers requiring a drivers license?
You don’t have to have a license. Birth certificate and SS card suffices!
Airlines a very safe mode of transportation as a result of being heavily
regulated and pilots that make decisions based on pragmatic decisions and choosing the safest option in any situation. It’s called stacking the odds in your favor. Politics or personal feeling should never enter into the decision making process.
This is all about SWA putting politics ahead of safety.